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so

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[Music]

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all right well hello and welcome to the

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first episode of liminal frames we are

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incredibly grateful to have you the

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listener join us on this journey

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i am your co-host nathan and with me

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today is uh

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my friend and co-host exo academia next

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how's it going

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it's going great happy to be here

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looking forward to this

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yeah we have been talking about this for

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quite some time and i'm super excited to

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get into this with you and uh you know

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kind of bring folks along

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on a journey that we are both on

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ourselves um and so with that being said

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you know why don't we get get rolling

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here

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uh

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let's start with this so you know you've

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got an existing show

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already you've been doing a show for

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just over a year now i mean how did you

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get into that in in the first place and

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kind of how did you get where you are

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right now

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right well i think um

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what was happening was you know kind of

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around even though i have a long history

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with the with the phenomenon and i was

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really fascinated back in the late 90s

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uh was really interested in the whitley

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strieber books

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uh followed that really closely but then

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kind of you know life happens and you

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know um

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get married and have kids and stuff and

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kind of got put on the back burner for a

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while

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um even though there were some

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experiences along the way that were were

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pretty profound that i had personally

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but then around you know 2017 when when

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the story started breaking in the

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mainstream and new york times came up

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with the articles

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um

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[Music]

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then i kind of took on a renewed

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interest and it kind of stirred that

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fire again and i got onto you know

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platforms like twitter ufo twitter

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and

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that felt really great really found a

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community there that felt like home

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um

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but that said

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you know

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research this for very long you don't

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have to familiarize yourself with this

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topic for very long

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uh the ufo phenomenon and sort of

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anomalous phenomena in general

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before you very quickly realize it takes

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a lot of nuance it takes a lot of

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sophistication to do it justice

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and so it it and so 220 characters or

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whatever you get with uh with twitter

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these days to make a tweet

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i realized it was difficult to say what

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i wanted to say and be understood

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and so i thought you know

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i kind of want to do something more

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long-form where i can kind of you know

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shape some arguments

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and both present some ideas but also

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come up with a show that would allow me

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to process you know and to do research

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and sort of share with the audience as

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i'm learning and growing and

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understanding it all and so that's and

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there were a lot of shows already doing

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interviews and i really wanted to and at

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first i thought i might do interviews as

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well

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but it kind of quickly evolved into

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me taking you know the many uh spokes of

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the wheel within you know the contact

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modalities in general

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and breaking out shows

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looking at the phenomenon from different

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angles talking about specific cases you

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know in kind of the micro view but also

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taking more of the macro view and

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discussing the different hypotheses that

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are put forward to explain what's going

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on

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and you know take the time to do sort of

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like a 30-minute 40-minute show once a

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week

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tackling each of those different ideas

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and then build sort of a repertoire of

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understanding over time with an audience

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that gets to know me and and we have

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some shared background uh you know that

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sort of relational background if you

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know what i mean when i say this kind of

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thing which i'm looking forward to doing

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with you here as well

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uh so that's what point of convergence

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that was the idea that spawned the show

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and it's been that and more it's been

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great and it's been really been great to

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see that people

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have engaged with it and are interested

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in the topics that i'm interested in and

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uh you know people thank me but the end

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of the day i'm just doing i'm going

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where my curiosity takes me and i'm

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happy that other people are coming along

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for the ride uh and yeah just over a

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year in now yeah and and the show's

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taken uh some different turns i'm sure

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as you have uh grown that audience and

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you have kind of looked at the topics

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that uh that have piqued your curiosity

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and one additional sort of turn in the

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road in that journey is kind of where we

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are right now so you know it's it's

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you've done a successful show uh you've

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got a successful show why did you want

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to do this show with me like what what

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got you here right

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yeah well um

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that's an interesting question and i

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think um you and i sort of a few months

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ago um started talking about

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because i had been on your show which i

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want to ask you about in a second but i

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have been on calling all beings and uh

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you guys had interviewed me

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and i really appreciated that was the

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first time i had sort of interacted with

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you uh at least you know virtually

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and um really appreciated that the way

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that you asked thoughtful questions it

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was very clear that you're a deep

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thinker

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that you're thinking about some of the

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same things i am in the same ways that i

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am you really try and examine the frames

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that we use to make sense of these

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things as well as the things themselves

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um we both have a similar background you

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know in theology and biblical studies

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which is its own framing of reality

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which is really interesting

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um and so i was really impressed with

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the questions you asked and just the

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quality of your

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um you know your thinking about these

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issues

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and as we began discussing more and more

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then you reminded me that we live in the

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same area which was crazy you know of

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all the possibilities of where we could

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live in the world

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we live really close together in the

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blue ridge mountains um

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and that was really cool and and then

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you know once i got to meet you in

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person you know you were

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exactly as you expected you to be and we

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just kind of hit it off

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and we just realized that whether we're

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sitting over a coffee or a beer you know

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conversation just flows and it it sort

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of builds off each other

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and i thought

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it wasn't because you just happened to

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be nearby that i said well i'll do this

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with nathan

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no it's that you know i really feel like

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this is a good fit um we kind of build

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ideas together uh fire off each other

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and so i i thought you know this gives

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me

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an opportunity to

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have more of a conversational kind of

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dialogue

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um in real time uh because point of

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conversions for those who haven't tuned

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in it's kind of i take one idea and kind

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of do this you know audio essay kind of

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thing um

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and whereas here i want it to be sort of

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more stream of consciousness in the flow

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live you know be able to talk about

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things that are happening in the news

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as we go and be able to do it in kind of

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conversation format and that's why um

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it was really happy to do with you

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um but let me ask you

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in question so

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uh

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how did you get involved with calling

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all beings to begin with and then from

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there uh what brings you to this show

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yeah that's a good question so

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um

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falling into calling all beings was not

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uh necessarily you know something i set

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out to do in 2021 i had been

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a long time uh sort of fan of

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ufo twitter

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for many years in fact before

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last year

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and enjoyed following the conversation

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uh enjoyed following the discussion

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and

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in particular i was following a a

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specific podcast that ufo podcast that

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uh andy does andy mcgrillen in the uk

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and really enjoyed his his interview

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style and uh i had an opportunity once

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to uh jump into a chat with andy and and

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dj who's my current co-host at calling

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all beings and had a good discussion

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with them uh you know for dj's podcast

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at the time

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and after the fact dj reached out to me

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and he said hey you know this was a

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really great chat i enjoyed it a lot

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maybe we should think about doing

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something together and i said you know i

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don't know maybe maybe that's a good

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idea

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let's take a closer look at that we

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bounced around some ideas for the name

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of the show

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landed on calling all beings and uh and

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here we are so we've been you know kind

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of putting together our own content for

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a few months now

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and you know it's interesting as i look

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back on you know kind of that entire

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journey from being a participant in the

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conversation

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not a content creator

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and now being a content creator you know

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there are different ways that uh sort of

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the individual can focus on this

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material right so there's and i think

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you'll relate to this a lot from your

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from your integral theory approach but

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there's you know very much kind of like

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an inner

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self approach to the material and

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there's an outer self approach to the

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material there's a there's a community

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centered way of thinking about it and

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there's an internal kind of dialogue way

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of thinking about it and with calling

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all beings

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which is you know kind of interesting

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the dichotomy between that that show and

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point of convergence with calling all

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beings it's very much more focused on

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you know the community uh discussion you

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know kind of what what's happening

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in the popular space of ufo twitter the

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the kind of topics of the day

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and it's also focused on the individuals

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then themselves you know kind of how do

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we

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foster a healthy dialogue

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with people how do we create a nurturing

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environment that is positive and

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supportive so that we can together

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you know kind of find our way toward

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uh some

284
00:10:03,269 --> 00:10:00,320
frameworks that help us make sense of

285
00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:03,279
what's going on and so you know the role

286
00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:06,640
that i play on that show is very much

287
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:09,279
you know kind of uh a thinker but also

288
00:10:13,829 --> 00:10:11,680
just a really a fan of the community

289
00:10:16,069 --> 00:10:13,839
itself you know and trying to uplift the

290
00:10:18,389 --> 00:10:16,079
voices of the community and and

291
00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:18,399
strengthen the the ties that are there

292
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:20,480
so yeah it's uh it's been a definitely

293
00:10:22,949 --> 00:10:22,240
an interesting journey and you know i

294
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:22,959
guess

295
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:24,720
you know taking a step back from all

296
00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:26,640
that as well

297
00:10:30,310 --> 00:10:29,200
um you know when we've talked about this

298
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:30,320
quite a bit

299
00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:31,120
my

300
00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:34,160
entire life has kind of been

301
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:36,320
thinking about the ways in which stories

302
00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:37,279
impact

303
00:10:42,069 --> 00:10:39,040
ourselves you know so

304
00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:42,079
looking at uh individuals experiences

305
00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:43,920
looking at uh the narratives that we

306
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:45,600
kind of find ourselves in when we're

307
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:46,399
born

308
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:48,640
and the ones that we craft as we go

309
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:51,600
through life and just holding those out

310
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:53,760
and looking at them turning them over

311
00:10:58,310 --> 00:10:56,079
trying to make sense of them and that

312
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:58,320
kind of approach that that i

313
00:11:02,389 --> 00:11:00,160
either you know kind of came to my own

314
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:02,399
or was kind of taught to me

315
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:04,959
at a young age growing up in a pretty

316
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:07,760
religious household uh has really served

317
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:09,680
me well in approaching

318
00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:11,519
this particular topic you know it's

319
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:13,279
really helped me to kind of

320
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:15,279
look at the different experiences that

321
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,360
people are sharing and also the

322
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,519
phenomenon that is related

323
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:23,600
to the public from what the government

324
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,920
has has studied and kind of think about

325
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,120
okay what

326
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:29,040
what is happening but also what is it

327
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:31,920
doing what is it doing to me as a person

328
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:34,320
what is it doing to us as a people you

329
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:36,800
know how are we kind of interacting

330
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:39,839
relating to whatever this happens to be

331
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:42,399
and and i would say that it's you know

332
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:44,399
it's not new it's not new in the sense

333
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,920
that um

334
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:47,360
you know people talk about it being kind

335
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,720
of an ancient phenomenon but i don't

336
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,720
even mean that i just mean the human

337
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:52,800
experience is not new the experience of

338
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:54,959
of existence itself right so

339
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,880
how we go through our life and our and

340
00:12:00,389 --> 00:11:58,720
the seasons of our lives you know we're

341
00:12:01,670 --> 00:12:00,399
and how we've done that through through

342
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:01,680
history

343
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,680
uh you know it's always been

344
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:05,600
this sort of act of

345
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:06,720
of uh

346
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,079
of

347
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,480
uh it's been an active process you know

348
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,560
where people are really engaged in in

349
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:14,880
narrative forming and and then taking

350
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:16,480
that story and helping them kind of

351
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:18,720
chart a path in their own life and make

352
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:20,720
sense of what is happening you know both

353
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:24,240
in your past and your future

354
00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:25,360
right

355
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:27,279
and so um

356
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:28,959
so that got you to where you were with

357
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:31,360
calling all beings um what specifically

358
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:33,920
about doing this show with me uh was uh

359
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:35,279
interesting yeah so i mean as you

360
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:36,399
mentioned like

361
00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:37,600
i mean i

362
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:40,880
i can remember the moment where uh i had

363
00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:42,639
this kind of like aha

364
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:44,800
situation i was sitting out on my deck

365
00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:45,920
and i was listening to point of

366
00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:47,600
convergence and

367
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:49,200
i don't know if i just never picked up

368
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:51,440
on it before but when you close the show

369
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:53,360
you know you said deep in the in the

370
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:55,120
blue ridge mountains and i was like well

371
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,560
i'm deep in the blue ridge mountains

372
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:59,040
like where is this guy and i gotta find

373
00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:00,480
i gotta find this guy so i reached out

374
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,720
to you sent you an email and uh and you

375
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,320
responded which was you know for me a

376
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:06,480
real like a real positive thing i wasn't

377
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:08,160
expecting a response but

378
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:11,200
uh you know it

379
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:12,560
your show

380
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,519
and and who you are as a person

381
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:17,920
you know it's apparent to me after the

382
00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:20,880
several conversations that we've had uh

383
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,399
up to this point that um

384
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:26,880
we share a pretty similar

385
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,079
you know kind of fabric of uh of of the

386
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:32,880
way in which we think about this

387
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,639
issue the issue of the phenomenon but

388
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:36,560
the way we think about kind of the world

389
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:38,880
in general you know so there's not a lot

390
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:41,040
that when you and i are talking

391
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:43,040
together that i have to kind of really

392
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:44,320
unpack for you

393
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:47,519
and so i i i found that to be

394
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:49,360
you know i think it's funny word to use

395
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:50,800
but like relaxing you know it's just

396
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:52,959
nice to kind of do that and you don't

397
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:55,920
have to get into a lot of the explainers

398
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,760
you know you just kind of know where i'm

399
00:14:01,750 --> 00:13:59,440
coming from

400
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,760
and uh and then i think too like there

401
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,760
is um

402
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:05,760
there's a value

403
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:08,959
that i think that our perspectives bring

404
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,360
to this right and that you know having

405
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:12,959
both kind of

406
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:14,959
grown up with

407
00:14:20,790 --> 00:14:18,320
a religious studies sort of viewpoint

408
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,800
you know i think it it allows us to look

409
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:22,000
at this

410
00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:24,639
in a way that is unique um but also a

411
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:27,279
way that is um i would hope

412
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,800
you know kind of like affirming you know

413
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:30,480
it's not something that

414
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:32,160
and i know you've had your own you know

415
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:33,839
specific experience but it's not

416
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:35,920
something that uh

417
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:37,600
you know at the end of the day kind of

418
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:40,000
like puts us both in a state of

419
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:41,839
you know ontological confusion you know

420
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:44,480
we're sort of ready to to deal with

421
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:46,240
these things and try to make sense of

422
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,519
them and and

423
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,680
we're comfortable with exploring a lot

424
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:51,360
of the different avenues so this

425
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:52,800
particular show

426
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:55,279
is a great way for us to do that in a

427
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:57,600
kind of thinking out loud sense you know

428
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:00,160
for both of our audiences but also for

429
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,440
ourselves you know this is something

430
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:03,120
that i think really feeds

431
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:04,560
um our own

432
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:07,920
uh sort of curiosities and needs when it

433
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,079
comes to this topic how many people can

434
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:12,800
say they have like a a close friend in

435
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:14,320
town or whatever that they can have a

436
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,399
chat like this on and just

437
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:18,000
you know pick up right where you left

438
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:20,160
off and and it'd be very you know

439
00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:22,079
engaging and entertaining and

440
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:26,710
yeah it's sort of i think about the

441
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,120
funny meme where people say you know

442
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:31,440
someone in a coffee shop says you know

443
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:33,440
you know randomly uh so what do you do

444
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,120
for for interest you know what what's

445
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:37,040
what's your hobby and the person begins

446
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:38,079
the slow

447
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:39,440
introduction to well i'm really

448
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:41,519
fascinated by ufos and aliens and

449
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:43,759
they're like well nice meeting you

450
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:46,560
later great talking with you

451
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,959
whereas you you and i we get together

452
00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:50,880
you know over a beer or coffee and

453
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:52,399
that's what we talk about for a couple

454
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:55,440
hours straight so yeah but i mean i

455
00:15:58,550 --> 00:15:56,880
think that

456
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:58,560
another thing that i think both you and

457
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:01,120
i bring to this that we share in common

458
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,680
is having

459
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,680
already you know moved through a couple

460
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:07,920
different sort of life frames ourselves

461
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:11,040
you know like we we both grew up in or

462
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,480
and i didn't grow up so much but later

463
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:14,000
on sort of took on more of a religious

464
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:15,680
kind of perspective and you grew up in

465
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:16,480
one

466
00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:19,199
um but we kind of also transcended that

467
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:21,759
so we've we've lived within different

468
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:24,079
frames of meaning right so

469
00:16:27,269 --> 00:16:25,279
um

470
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:27,279
and having progressed through those

471
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:29,519
moving on to different ones it what i've

472
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:31,600
found is it it allows you to be more

473
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:34,800
flexible and um reflective

474
00:16:36,749 --> 00:16:35,759
and

475
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:36,759
you know

476
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,399
multi-perspectival when it comes to

477
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:40,720
looking at reality in general and for

478
00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:43,600
something as complex and bewildering you

479
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:46,160
know as the ufo phenomenon

480
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:48,000
i find that's really helpful and useful

481
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:49,519
to be able to put on different pairs of

482
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:50,639
glasses

483
00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:52,160
look at it from different perspectives

484
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:53,680
different angles

485
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:55,759
different meaning models and try to make

486
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:57,440
sense of it because

487
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:01,440
it's so you know it really is so um

488
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:03,199
discombobulating is the word i like to

489
00:17:06,309 --> 00:17:04,799
use

490
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:06,319
it really helps to look at it from

491
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:07,760
different angles and in fact i think

492
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:09,919
only by doing that that do we begin to

493
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:12,319
piece together some kind of model that

494
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:13,679
makes sense

495
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,839
but it also allows us to relate to lots

496
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:17,679
of different kinds of people

497
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:19,520
some people do sort of take a very

498
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:22,079
spiritual perspective to this entire

499
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:24,319
phenomenon some from a positive

500
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:26,240
viewpoint and some from a negative one

501
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,839
but we can relate to that because we've

502
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,760
been in those circles

503
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,400
i've also as i'm sure you have too have

504
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:34,640
spent some time where i pretty much

505
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:37,280
was a flatland modernist where i and you

506
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,520
know had an empirical view of the world

507
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:41,280
and if i can't measure it and study it

508
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:42,640
doesn't exist kind of thing so i

509
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,760
understand

510
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:45,520
the the scientific and academic

511
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:47,600
community who take that kind of view but

512
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:50,000
i also partly because of who i married

513
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,160
transcended that view and began to

514
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:54,640
realize uh you know there's all sorts of

515
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:57,200
aspects of reality that exists no matter

516
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:58,720
how much we try to you know shove them

517
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:00,240
into a box and put them in the closet

518
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,080
they're actually going on

519
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,640
and uh so you having progressed through

520
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,559
each of those different um you know

521
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,039
viewpoints ways of seeing the world

522
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:11,120
uh it allows you to relate to each of

523
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:14,799
those people uh but also to uh to bring

524
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:16,160
all of those different perspectives

525
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,440
together when we're trying to make sense

526
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:19,200
of this all

527
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:21,039
yeah so you know as you were talking

528
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:22,720
about that and

529
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:23,600
you know

530
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:25,520
the frameworks we kind of coming back to

531
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:28,080
that and it's funny that we landed on

532
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:30,720
using that as part of the name of this

533
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,600
show

534
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,440
you know but but the name itself i think

535
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:35,440
has a lot of different layers to it so

536
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:37,679
maybe we can unpack that a little bit uh

537
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:40,640
and kind of talk through how we

538
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:42,240
came up with this so the show is called

539
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:44,880
liminal frames and frames is spelled

540
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:47,039
with a ph and i think folks who follow

541
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:48,320
this will probably understand why we

542
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:50,799
chose that but you know what what's your

543
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,720
reaction to kind of the name of the show

544
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:54,240
and what is it that you were sort of

545
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:57,600
hoping it would um elicit uh in terms of

546
00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:00,240
what people take away from it

547
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:02,559
right i mean i think um

548
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:04,480
a couple things uh you know we were

549
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:06,080
tossing around different terms that make

550
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:07,039
sense

551
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:08,640
as soon as we landed on liminal i

552
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:09,520
thought right away you know that's

553
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,960
that's a great um sort of catch-all word

554
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:14,320
that sort of

555
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,160
takes in the totality of what i think we

556
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,160
might be discussing and what different

557
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:20,799
aspects that are related um

558
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:22,160
you know just to give people a bit of a

559
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:23,520
background here

560
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,160
i grabbed a couple of definitions here

561
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,480
liminal can refer to

562
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,640
relating to a transitional or initial

563
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:32,640
stage of a process

564
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:34,880
another definition is a definition is

565
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,039
occupying a position at

566
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:39,360
or on both sides of a boundary or

567
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:40,480
threshold

568
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:43,120
and in anthropology liminality is the

569
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:46,160
quality of ambiguity or disorientation

570
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:47,840
that occurs in the middle stage of a

571
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,559
rite of passage when participants no

572
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:52,960
longer hold their pre-ritual status but

573
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,679
have not yet begun the transition to the

574
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:57,440
status they will hold when the right is

575
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:58,640
complete

576
00:20:01,270 --> 00:19:59,520
so

577
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:01,280
you know even as i was reviewing those

578
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:03,360
definitions i thought that's so bang on

579
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:05,600
for for what the phenomenon is you know

580
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:06,480
and

581
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:10,559
we

582
00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:12,640
have one foot in the you know quote

583
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:15,039
unquote normal world and and one foot in

584
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:17,120
high strangeness constantly

585
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:19,600
um either by direct experience or just

586
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:21,039
from knowing so many people that are

587
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:22,320
going through that

588
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:25,919
um and that strange feeling of

589
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:27,760
you know we're the we're the one percent

590
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:28,960
or whatever they're walking around

591
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:31,280
thinking about this all the time

592
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,880
when we're surrounded kind of like the

593
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:35,039
matrix surrounded by people who are

594
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,520
largely oblivious to it you know

595
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,360
and and so

596
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:41,280
liminal seems like a great word in that

597
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:44,000
sense in terms of where we are in time

598
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:46,080
and within our culture

599
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:49,280
uh but also because i think that

600
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:50,720
you know

601
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:52,880
it may be that the phenomenon is ramping

602
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:54,559
up there's some evidence of that and

603
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,679
that we are in the process of even the

604
00:21:02,149 --> 00:20:59,679
the meaning making models that we apply

605
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:02,159
to the world what life is what reality

606
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,799
is the fabric of reality all of that is

607
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,480
coming into question for those of us who

608
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:08,480
really pay attention to the data

609
00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:10,480
and there's a sense that

610
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:13,039
sooner or later our entire civilization

611
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,640
is going to have to grapple with that

612
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:16,720
kind of information and make that

613
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:18,720
transition into something new that we

614
00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:20,640
don't we can't really fully understand

615
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:23,200
what it's going to be yet but it uh you

616
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:25,360
know it's very clear that the way we

617
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:27,200
used to make sense of the world doesn't

618
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:29,760
fit with what's you know coming out in

619
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:32,080
the phenomenon so

620
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:34,880
there's that and then the frames piece

621
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:37,200
was you know realizing that again

622
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:38,960
whether it's a different hypothesis you

623
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:40,799
apply to it and and i've sort of been

624
00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:43,120
working with this idea that we sort of

625
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:45,280
conveniently use this term the ufo

626
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:47,280
phenomenon as kind of a catch-all meta

627
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,080
category but that likely involves

628
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,080
from my perspective many different kinds

629
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:54,640
of entities different intelligences

630
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:56,559
probably with different origin stories

631
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,159
whether it's extraterrestrial

632
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:00,480
interdimensional extra dimensional

633
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,799
um i think all that's in the fold and

634
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:04,080
part of the

635
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:05,919
uh mistake we kind of make or the

636
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,080
assumption we make is because we've so

637
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,080
long lived in this idea that in the

638
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:12,960
modern world that you know unless i can

639
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:14,640
see it and measure it and shake hands

640
00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:16,559
with it it doesn't exist

641
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:17,440
um

642
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:20,080
and so even if we begin to open the door

643
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,520
a little bit

644
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:24,240
to say okay so maybe ets exist and okay

645
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,919
maybe maybe they're here although that's

646
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,760
a stretch for most people

647
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,360
but to actually

648
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:32,159
flip open pandora's box and say you know

649
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:34,240
we're maybe part of a multiverse that's

650
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,840
teeming with inter-dimensional life

651
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,200
maybe just

652
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:39,120
tiny you know the thinnest membrane

653
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:40,720
separating us from

654
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,480
entities galore kind of things so

655
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:44,640
there's that as well how do we apply

656
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,880
different frames to understanding all of

657
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:48,720
that you know how do we make sense of

658
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,200
the the fairy lore being having so much

659
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:53,120
crossover with grey aliens you know are

660
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:55,280
those different entities are the same

661
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:57,200
ones are we just conflating those

662
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,600
because we're just not familiar

663
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:01,919
and not comfortable maybe with just how

664
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:04,320
diverse and richly populated the

665
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,840
multiverse is

666
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:07,760
so that's some of the ideas i think of

667
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:09,280
when i think of liminal frames what

668
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:11,600
about for you yeah i so

669
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:13,600
i love those definitions and it's funny

670
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:15,280
that we didn't i looked at them a little

671
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,559
bit and we were kind of bouncing around

672
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:18,240
names but i didn't look at them in

673
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,720
detail but hearing them

674
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:22,799
a couple words you know jumped out at me

675
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,440
you know ambiguity and disorientation

676
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,360
you know or words that that were there

677
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:29,760
and i think very much that uh

678
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:32,240
they apply to this to this the the

679
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:33,760
phenomenon the experience of the

680
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:35,520
phenomenon right there

681
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:36,880
that uh

682
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:39,120
when you start kind of entering the

683
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:41,360
playground of these ideas

684
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:42,480
you

685
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:49,200
uh way of thinking

686
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,679
these uh new new possibilities that

687
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,200
weren't there before

688
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:55,600
and uh what does that do to the way that

689
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:57,200
you think about the world the way you

690
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:58,960
think about relationships the way that

691
00:24:05,990 --> 00:23:59,760
you

692
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,000
things kind of play in with uh with with

693
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,880
your your individual human experience

694
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:09,919
and so

695
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,120
you know for me that liminal state that

696
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:15,840
you know not quite asleep maybe not

697
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:17,919
fully awake you know that a transitory

698
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,279
kind of period

699
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:21,600
uh you know it's it's just really spot

700
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:22,799
on for

701
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:24,960
what it feels like kind of navigating

702
00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:25,679
the

703
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:31,360
uh individual experience or accounts

704
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,880
you know if you're taking all this stuff

705
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:34,799
at face value and even if you're not if

706
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:36,480
you're taking a critical look at it and

707
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,480
hopefully you know folks are

708
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,640
you're still having to come to a place

709
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:42,480
where you're

710
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:44,720
it hopefully challenges your conceptions

711
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,880
of reality and

712
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:48,240
you know i think that that's a healthy

713
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:51,200
thing to do for anyone no matter where

714
00:24:56,549 --> 00:24:53,679
you really land at the end of the day

715
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:56,559
on this particular topic of ufos and the

716
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:58,720
ufo phenomenon itself at the end of the

717
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:00,159
day you kind of discount the whole thing

718
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,840
i think it's still a healthy exercise

719
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:04,320
that we go through this and i think as

720
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:05,520
well

721
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:07,360
you know what something that you touched

722
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:09,760
on that got me thinking about our our

723
00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:12,080
kind of future the future of of of

724
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:14,320
humanity provided we don't uh sort of

725
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:16,400
prematurely in that but

726
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,159
you know these are kinds of things that

727
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:20,080
that are important to do you know the

728
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,200
the the thought exercises that we do now

729
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,039
that our philosophers do and our

730
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:26,799
ethicists and our theologians and our

731
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,520
scientists you know all of these

732
00:25:33,669 --> 00:25:31,679
theories that we entertain

733
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,679
notions that we examine

734
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:34,640
they

735
00:25:39,269 --> 00:25:36,880
better prepare us for a future that will

736
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:39,279
inevitably be strained strange to us as

737
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:39,919
a

738
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:43,600
the world

739
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:45,440
and so for us to

740
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:47,919
kind of wade into those waters and be

741
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:50,960
more comfortable with that territory and

742
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:53,440
play with those ideas i think it

743
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:55,760
you know in a way kind of inoculates us

744
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,279
against the strangeness that will

745
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:58,799
eventually come

746
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:01,120
and you know so these ideas hopefully

747
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,520
make their way into our literature um

748
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:05,279
they make our way you know into our

749
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:08,640
science and they propel us forward um so

750
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,120
that our our collective and our

751
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:13,600
individual mind spaces are better

752
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:15,039
prepared for

753
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:17,919
the strange future that lies ahead and

754
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:20,640
you know the the frameworks aspect of it

755
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:23,279
you know is incredibly fitting

756
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:24,720
as well because

757
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:26,880
you know as you hinted at the

758
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:31,919
i i think it's hard for me at least to

759
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:34,799
hold a singular position a singular

760
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:37,600
framework on what it is and i think

761
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:39,679
you know it's healthier for me at least

762
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,880
to kind of

763
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,600
have a diverse diet of theories because

764
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:45,200
that allows me to take different

765
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:47,520
experiences and examine them through

766
00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:49,440
these different lenses

767
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:53,279
and see in that process of examination

768
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,080
what new things emerge what new sort of

769
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,640
truths emerge or what new ideas are

770
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:00,799
sparked because of that lens and that

771
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:03,600
examination itself you know in a way

772
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:06,240
we're kind of um

773
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:07,760
it's like we're playing with puzzle

774
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:09,520
pieces where we don't want to know if we

775
00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:11,279
have all the pieces and two we don't

776
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:12,880
even know what what the picture of the

777
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:15,520
puzzle looks like but we know that we're

778
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,480
we know that we're playing with

779
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:18,240
something that feels

780
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:20,960
and has it and has a real significance

781
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:25,360
to it and so i think being able to

782
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:28,080
lay those various frameworks out

783
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:30,320
in one's mind or on the table and kind

784
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:31,120
of

785
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:33,120
be able to articulate them

786
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:35,600
and share them with other people it

787
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:38,320
really enriches the experience across

788
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:40,399
the board and hopefully provides a

789
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:41,600
richer

790
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:44,240
uh sort of

791
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:46,720
set of conclusions or at least a richer

792
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:49,039
set of theories as to what exactly the

793
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,880
phenomenon might be at the end of the

794
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:52,480
day

795
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:53,360
right

796
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:55,279
yeah and i think you know you mentioned

797
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:57,200
earlier that i have a background in

798
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:58,640
integral theory

799
00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:00,159
and you know one of the things that

800
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,240
integral theory tries to do is look at

801
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:04,159
reality from four different quadrants

802
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:05,919
you know you have

803
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,960
an i space a wee space the it space the

804
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,720
sort of more objective analysis and then

805
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:13,200
it's in terms of the plurality of that

806
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:14,799
but sort of those are the big three you

807
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,240
can think of i we and it and like i was

808
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,080
saying earlier the empirical model is

809
00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:22,000
sort of you know let's only pay

810
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,440
attention to the it because that's

811
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:25,840
objective it's measurable therefore it's

812
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,520
real everything else is kind of mushy

813
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,279
subjectivity right

814
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,399
and yet

815
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:31,919
what i love about integral theory is it

816
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,559
says no the only way you can make sense

817
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,320
of the totality of human experience and

818
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:39,039
of reality in the fabric of reality

819
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:40,320
is to

820
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:42,399
look at it from all four quadrants or

821
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:44,480
all three of those sort of main

822
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,679
domains

823
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:47,760
and that's totally true for the for the

824
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:50,080
ufo phenomenon as well and so

825
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:52,240
when i look at the frames that usually

826
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,640
get applied uh people are often

827
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,399
unconscious about the frames they're

828
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:58,640
bringing the framework the right the the

829
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,200
grid they're applying to it and so they

830
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:03,200
think that look i'm just applying my

831
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:05,919
reality our shared reality model to

832
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:07,679
what's going on and i'm like well no

833
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:09,360
you're actually sharing an empirical

834
00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:12,080
model and saying only what i can catch

835
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:14,480
in this net counts right

836
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:17,520
um and and so for instance experiencer

837
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:20,080
accounts are often uh you know

838
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,919
downplayed by people trying to look at

839
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:23,919
more of an empirical approach

840
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,080
and yet i think jacques valet you know

841
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:28,240
thankfully pioneered this back in the

842
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:31,279
70s saying no actually

843
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,200
interviewing these really credible

844
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,440
people who otherwise are

845
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,200
professional people with families who

846
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:38,880
have no background in with mental

847
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:42,240
illness really seem to be not only have

848
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,039
been

849
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:45,200
encountered something really

850
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:47,600
anomalous but they've been permanently

851
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:50,159
changed by the experience right

852
00:29:55,029 --> 00:29:51,919
that's one of the most

853
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,039
impacting aspects of this is that people

854
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:57,279
don't just have something happen that

855
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,960
really is difficult to deal with and

856
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:00,559
then they go back to the life they had

857
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,039
before but rather they are often

858
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:05,679
changed forever by these experiences and

859
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:08,240
then when you add to that that there's

860
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:10,240
so much commonality

861
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:11,360
all around the world even

862
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,360
cross-culturally and over time with

863
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:15,039
people having these experiences there's

864
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:16,240
so much

865
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:18,559
overlap in the data in the terms of kind

866
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:20,000
of things they run into even though

867
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,080
they're totally bizarre you know

868
00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:23,919
elements and yet they happen time and

869
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,120
time again

870
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,440
um for people who are you know again

871
00:30:31,029 --> 00:30:29,279
credible individuals no history of

872
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:31,039
making stuff up and

873
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:33,120
and even more so when you even if you

874
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,720
say there's a small percentage of people

875
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:36,880
who are doing that when you look at the

876
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:38,720
totality of the data it's very clear

877
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:40,480
that something is going on it's

878
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:42,880
impacting people and how it changes

879
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:45,600
people is just an important measure just

880
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:48,159
as an important measure as you know soil

881
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:50,159
samples and radar returns and that kind

882
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:51,679
of thing in fact

883
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:52,559
you know

884
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:55,760
valet's uh frame that he applies

885
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:58,880
is this idea that perhaps you know

886
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:01,919
an a collective unconscious evolution is

887
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,200
what's in play here that um

888
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:07,360
and what's fascinating about that idea

889
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:08,240
is that

890
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:10,000
a high intelligence you know whether

891
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:11,760
that be aliens or

892
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:13,679
some sort of extra-dimensional god-like

893
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:15,279
figure or whatever

894
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:16,240
um

895
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,440
you know

896
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,519
is able to shape potentially the

897
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:22,240
evolution of consciousness on the earth

898
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:24,000
without us ever being aware that it's

899
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:25,760
happening because it's happening at an

900
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,399
unconscious level and so even that frame

901
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:30,399
is fascinating to me that

902
00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:32,159
for every space we try and look at

903
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:33,840
whether we look at outer space with the

904
00:31:37,669 --> 00:31:35,760
extraterrestrial hypothesis or we look

905
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:37,679
at inner space when we look at the

906
00:31:43,509 --> 00:31:40,559
collective unconscious and uh you know

907
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,519
tulpas and egregors and things like that

908
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:45,200
uh you know or you look at the spiritual

909
00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:47,120
dynamic and sort of celestial or

910
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:49,919
extra-dimensional uh beings i think all

911
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,600
of that is in the pictures and that's

912
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:54,000
why this is on the one hand you know

913
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:56,559
kind of glorious gloriously overwhelming

914
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:57,360
you know

915
00:32:01,909 --> 00:32:00,240
it just it's almost unfathomable but in

916
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:01,919
a way that makes you almost feel like a

917
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:02,720
kid

918
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:05,600
just saying wow reality is so

919
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:07,919
you know beautifully multifaceting you

920
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,679
know multifaceted even though it

921
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:12,000
sometimes can be terrifying as well

922
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:13,120
and

923
00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:18,080
make sense of that is to try try on

924
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,600
different pairs of glasses look with

925
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:21,120
different frames

926
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,200
analyze the data from those different

927
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:25,120
domains you know the eye space the wii

928
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:26,880
space the it space

929
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,240
and and try to begin to weave together a

930
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,200
fabric that can include all of that yeah

931
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,279
love it yeah i mean you have to you have

932
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:37,360
to and then you know that gets me to i

933
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:39,120
guess like

934
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:40,960
bringing it down to um

935
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:43,440
a particular perspective so you know we

936
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:46,640
just wrapped up 2021 and uh start of a

937
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:48,480
new year here uh

938
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,159
looking back on

939
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:52,159
on the past year

940
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:53,600
you know what were kind of some of the

941
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:56,080
standout moments for you

942
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:58,320
both with respect to

943
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:00,960
the topic of the phenomenon but also

944
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,200
uh i think in your own kind of in a sort

945
00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:05,120
of personal journey or the show or you

946
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:06,559
know what what kind of reflections do

947
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:09,679
you have on on the last year

948
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:11,919
yeah it's been it's been fascinating and

949
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,240
i think part of the challenge that any

950
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:15,919
of us who are you know into this

951
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,240
day-to-day kind of uh perspective with

952
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:20,159
this phenomenon it's hard for us i think

953
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:21,120
to have

954
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:22,640
speaking of perspective

955
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,000
to have um an accurate perspective on on

956
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:28,080
where we are in terms of the the greater

957
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,519
society you know

958
00:33:33,029 --> 00:33:31,279
how how close are we to some

959
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:33,039
breakthrough moment where suddenly you

960
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:34,720
know every headline in the world is

961
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,600
about ufos and aliens right whether they

962
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:39,360
be extraterrestrial or interdimensional

963
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:40,799
or whatever

964
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,399
i think that

965
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,880
because we're into this every single day

966
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:46,559
um

967
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,120
it it feels like it's always imminent

968
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:51,120
right it feels like any day now this is

969
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:53,440
gonna and we turn on the the news and

970
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,760
think wow wait a second why is that not

971
00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:57,519
well i don't see anything you know or if

972
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,440
it is mentioned it's it's really in

973
00:34:03,029 --> 00:34:01,679
passing there almost seems to be like

974
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:03,039
you know and this this is its own

975
00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:04,880
conversation kind of this collective

976
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:06,320
apathy you know when you ask where

977
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:07,919
that's coming from i think there's

978
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,320
there's multiple reasons why that exists

979
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:12,560
but on the other hand

980
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:14,399
you can't help a look and say wow this

981
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:17,040
has been a historic you know time

982
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,599
uh you know with the the the passage of

983
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:22,079
the bills that you know is for the first

984
00:34:25,349 --> 00:34:23,760
time in history saying you know this is

985
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:25,359
going to be studied this phenomenon is

986
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,359
going to be studied it won't be you know

987
00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:29,359
shoved under the rug it won't be just

988
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:31,760
under the purview of some black ops

989
00:34:34,069 --> 00:34:32,639
program

990
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,079
but you know congress is going to be

991
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:36,159
informed about this uh there will be

992
00:34:41,349 --> 00:34:37,760
both you know classified and

993
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:41,359
unclassified um briefings

994
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:42,879
i mean that's historic there's no way

995
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:44,480
you can look at it any other way you

996
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:46,320
know and that that's really

997
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:48,960
fascinating and exciting and again it's

998
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:51,280
still bizarre to me that it's not

999
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:54,000
getting more play in the mainstream uh

1000
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:55,200
but but that

1001
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:56,800
that tells me we're in a very different

1002
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:58,480
place than we were and that and i think

1003
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:59,920
that

1004
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:01,680
momentum has been growing ever since

1005
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:03,760
2017 and then sort of the breakthrough

1006
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:05,680
articles but even going back before then

1007
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,520
to you know what some of the

1008
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:09,359
investigations done at skinwalker ranch

1009
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,000
and

1010
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:12,400
um you know nids uh

1011
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:14,880
asap atip all that stuff has kind of

1012
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:18,320
been leading up to this right um

1013
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:19,200
so

1014
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,920
the in the general

1015
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,240
for me personally uh you know the last

1016
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:26,400
year has really been

1017
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:28,320
kind of like what you what you hinted at

1018
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:32,000
you know i i really don't land

1019
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:33,680
and with one perspective when it comes

1020
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:36,640
to this phenomenon and

1021
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:39,040
the moment that uh i think i'm seeing

1022
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,599
something that looks pretty consistent

1023
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:43,760
i'll see something that tells me

1024
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:45,119
you know the opposite end of the data

1025
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:46,480
kind of thing you know it contradicts

1026
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:47,839
the previous data

1027
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,240
and you know people like uh john

1028
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:52,400
alexander have talked about

1029
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,160
uh you know the trickster element and

1030
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:56,720
this precognitive sentient phenomena he

1031
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:57,680
called it

1032
00:36:01,589 --> 00:36:00,320
where um and just even historically

1033
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,599
there's been this notion of the

1034
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:03,520
trickster phenomena that

1035
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,640
you know confounds our attempt to

1036
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:08,560
understand what's going on

1037
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,640
so there's even this active sense that

1038
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,480
you know in my own life sometimes i feel

1039
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,320
like things are happening

1040
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:16,160
that are meant to throw a curve or throw

1041
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:17,760
a wrench into things just when i think

1042
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:20,640
i'm i'm grasping for understanding

1043
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:21,520
but

1044
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,880
i think

1045
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,480
unlike some people i've learned to sort

1046
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:26,960
of just enjoy that and go for the ride

1047
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,040
and and again knowing that this is

1048
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:31,440
probably a plurality of different

1049
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:34,000
um intelligences and entities and

1050
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:35,200
phenomena

1051
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:36,160
um

1052
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:38,960
so i've over time relaxed into that and

1053
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,119
just you know let myself

1054
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:43,599
take in the the glorious you know

1055
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,560
complexity that is the phenomenon and

1056
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:48,960
paranormal activity in general

1057
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:50,160
the

1058
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:51,599
you know one thing i've been impressed

1059
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:54,560
by over and over again is just how

1060
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,119
these bizarre connections you know how

1061
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,520
um a place like skinwalker ranch you

1062
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:01,920
have ufos and sasquatch and shadow

1063
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:03,119
people

1064
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:04,480
you know

1065
00:37:12,790 --> 00:37:10,960
walking out of portals uh this kind of

1066
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:12,800
thing you know how somehow this is all

1067
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:14,400
together that these

1068
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:16,640
co-arising phenomena that we've often

1069
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:19,599
studied as separate you know um tells me

1070
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,560
that somehow this is saying something uh

1071
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,480
cohesive about reality we need to make

1072
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,280
sense of it from that point of view um

1073
00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:28,880
so it's been it's been a fascinating

1074
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:31,200
year both publicly and privately for me

1075
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:32,880
because of that how about for you what's

1076
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,000
what's 2021 moving into 2022 look like

1077
00:37:40,069 --> 00:37:38,640
for you yeah well and and before i

1078
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:40,079
transition to me i actually have a

1079
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,599
question for you because it got me

1080
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:43,280
thinking i mean about and this one that

1081
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:45,440
i experienced as well i mean

1082
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,480
do you

1083
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:48,240
if you had moments of genuine

1084
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,160
frustration with this you know so where

1085
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:52,400
you mentioned that you're at a place now

1086
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:53,200
where

1087
00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:55,359
you know it's a little bit more

1088
00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,200
kind of going with the flow of the river

1089
00:38:01,270 --> 00:37:59,280
right of the change of the the different

1090
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:01,280
experiences that are out there but were

1091
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:03,040
there moments where you kind of think

1092
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:04,160
you were banging your head against the

1093
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,400
wall and it's like why can't this be

1094
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:08,400
clear why can't this be

1095
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:11,200
easier to understand and how did you

1096
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:12,880
when what was it like being in that

1097
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,640
moment and to

1098
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,560
was there something that really kind of

1099
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:18,800
catapulted you out of that or just it

1100
00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:20,880
just kind of took time to arrive at the

1101
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,390
i think that um again having a

1102
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:28,640
background in integral theory um and

1103
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,880
having sort of pers you know progress

1104
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:32,320
through different world views myself

1105
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:33,920
where i literally look at the world

1106
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:36,480
differently look at reality differently

1107
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:37,599
um

1108
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,160
i think that i already you know was kind

1109
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:42,560
of familiar with that kind of approach

1110
00:38:47,109 --> 00:38:45,520
uh with the phenomenon i think that

1111
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:47,119
part of the

1112
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,880
it's sort of a frustration but it's more

1113
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,160
like just it's

1114
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:51,680
just the nature of the beast which is

1115
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:52,560
that

1116
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,760
um

1117
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:55,280
because we can't study it in a

1118
00:38:58,310 --> 00:38:56,960
laboratory because we can't you know

1119
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:58,320
reproduce it

1120
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,880
on demand even when we bring sensor

1121
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,960
equipment out to skidmark ranch you know

1122
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:05,040
it'll deliberately some sort of

1123
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:06,640
intelligence seems to confound our

1124
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:07,920
ability to

1125
00:39:13,910 --> 00:39:11,280
photograph it to take videos of it

1126
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:13,920
um to get accurate sensor data that we

1127
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:16,640
can make sense of and like again john

1128
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,359
alexander kind of alluded to

1129
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:20,960
when it's always one step ahead of you

1130
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:23,440
that even the linearity of time you

1131
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:25,040
can't trust

1132
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:27,440
then you realize there are so few

1133
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,040
baselines that's what i keep coming back

1134
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:31,359
to is whenever i hear people

1135
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:33,760
having strong beliefs about it's this or

1136
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,040
it's that

1137
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:37,680
i my perspective is always according to

1138
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:39,680
what baselines like if you don't have a

1139
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:40,720
certain

1140
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:42,720
set of baselines you can begin with and

1141
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:43,520
have

1142
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,359
people agree generally that yes we can

1143
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:47,599
say this is the case therefore how about

1144
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:49,359
this so in other words in other words

1145
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,680
it's hard to even formulate hypotheses

1146
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:53,359
when you don't have

1147
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:55,440
you know really strong footing you know

1148
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,640
it's trying to build it's like trying to

1149
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:58,320
build a skyscraper

1150
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,160
uh you know on

1151
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:02,640
water-soaked land you know uh it's very

1152
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:05,040
difficult um

1153
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:06,880
i think that

1154
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:08,839
the other challenge

1155
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:12,000
is as much as experiencer accounts are

1156
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:15,200
central to understanding what's going on

1157
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:16,880
because of that we're always getting to

1158
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,440
some degree an interpretive lens on

1159
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:20,960
something that happened right because we

1160
00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:22,960
can't reproduce it

1161
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:25,359
and because it seems to elude

1162
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:28,160
being videoed or you know taking really

1163
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,760
high quality pictures which again is

1164
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:31,359
kind of a joke in them in the mainstream

1165
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,720
right

1166
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:34,880
but because it it seems to be able to

1167
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:37,040
avoid that happening

1168
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,920
um we are left with uh interpretive um

1169
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,000
you know takes on things that happen to

1170
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,480
people and so it even gets difficult to

1171
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:47,599
know

1172
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,240
okay was this a case where

1173
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:52,319
and there's so many elements like even

1174
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:53,760
the degree to which people have done

1175
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:55,280
their own shadow work and work through

1176
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,359
their own subconscious and how much

1177
00:41:01,750 --> 00:40:59,839
fear do they generally have because uh

1178
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:01,760
you know one thing that's become clear

1179
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,480
in my investigations is that

1180
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,640
the attitude you bring

1181
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,560
consciously or unconsciously to these

1182
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:10,160
experiences seems to

1183
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:12,079
really change the nature of the

1184
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,319
experience itself you know and i've been

1185
00:41:18,790 --> 00:41:16,319
doing some research recently into

1186
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:18,800
reincarnation and near-death experiences

1187
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,280
and some of the same elements come up

1188
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:23,359
there where when you're in these subtle

1189
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:24,319
realms

1190
00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:26,720
uh the smallest difference in your

1191
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,640
approach and your mentality again even

1192
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:30,160
i'm not saying it's people's fault it's

1193
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,119
not because much of this is unconscious

1194
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,440
but everything we bring seems to also be

1195
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:38,160
a major factor in what ends up happening

1196
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:40,160
so that makes even more difficult to

1197
00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:42,079
feel like you can say okay there's this

1198
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:42,880
group

1199
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:47,680
do because we're all different we all

1200
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:48,400
bring

1201
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:51,520
our own histories our own fears or not

1202
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:54,880
you know to the picture um so

1203
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:56,000
yeah there was some points of

1204
00:41:59,670 --> 00:41:58,000
frustration just with the how few

1205
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:59,680
baselines we have

1206
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:00,640
um

1207
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:03,040
but you know i think

1208
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:04,960
i've sort of adopted the perspective of

1209
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:06,800
looking at this more like an adventure

1210
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:08,960
you know and just um

1211
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:10,480
not wanting the journey to end to some

1212
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,960
degree like i want clarity i don't think

1213
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:14,720
i look at disclosure the same way that a

1214
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:17,520
lot of people do because i think that

1215
00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:20,079
again we're just seeing the very tip of

1216
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:22,000
the iceberg right now and

1217
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:22,800
uh

1218
00:42:26,790 --> 00:42:24,000
you know it's not something you can

1219
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:26,800
resolve in a few months or a year or

1220
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:29,040
even a decade i mean we're talking about

1221
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:32,079
completely uh revolutionizing the way we

1222
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:34,560
see the fabric of reality yeah full full

1223
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:35,839
stop you know that's that's what's on

1224
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:36,960
the table here

1225
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:39,839
so um i'm aware that for the rest of my

1226
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:42,240
lifetime we will be on un unwrapping

1227
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:43,520
this you know and trying to make sense

1228
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:44,720
of it that's what i would say about it

1229
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:46,960
yeah i know i love that perspective and

1230
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:49,200
uh you know i like to use the analogy

1231
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:51,119
too that you know if

1232
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:54,160
if uh an alien or whatever choose your

1233
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:56,960
favorite uh hypothesis were to land in

1234
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:59,520
front of your house and and

1235
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:00,720
give you an opportunity to ask a

1236
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:03,040
question and it gave you an answer

1237
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:05,040
you know surely at that point you would

1238
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:06,640
have more questions and if you don't

1239
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:08,400
have more questions then

1240
00:43:11,670 --> 00:43:10,000
you know to me there's a bit of a

1241
00:43:13,349 --> 00:43:11,680
problem so that

1242
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:13,359
it's the nature of

1243
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,640
at least i would think either

1244
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:16,319
consciousness itself or at least it's a

1245
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,440
quality of human consciousness to be

1246
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:21,359
forever curious

1247
00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:23,200
um and so

1248
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:26,800
you know looking back on on 2021 uh for

1249
00:43:30,069 --> 00:43:29,119
me it's it's almost like

1250
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:30,079
uh

1251
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,720
it yes i felt like we made very good

1252
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:35,200
progress uh in terms of making this

1253
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:36,160
topic

1254
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,200
um

1255
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:39,680
easier to discuss in the public sphere

1256
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,079
and i think it is still at a very very

1257
00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:44,480
in its early infancy there

1258
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:46,640
but we do see it talked about more

1259
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:49,760
frequently than we did in the past

1260
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:51,920
there is some growing momentum i think

1261
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,400
that this the ndaa language is really

1262
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:56,640
going to help shift the conversation

1263
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:00,000
because it does it's it's one more

1264
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:01,760
step in the

1265
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:04,720
uh pathway of legitimizing this topic

1266
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:07,200
you know it it if you think about you

1267
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,599
know kind of laying down stone

1268
00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:11,680
to build a path like it's just one more

1269
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:14,960
stone that is now on the ground and it

1270
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,960
takes you know a series of successive

1271
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:18,480
stones before you get that pathway

1272
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:20,480
finished and people can use it and it's

1273
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,000
just and then people feel like well this

1274
00:44:26,069 --> 00:44:24,319
path has always been here you know so it

1275
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,079
you know we really are kind of in that

1276
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:28,000
journey and participating in that

1277
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:31,440
journey uh by the work that uh that we

1278
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:33,920
do i think within the community

1279
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:35,440
by helping to normalize this

1280
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,880
conversation

1281
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:38,480
um and i think to

1282
00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:40,319
there were other some some other notable

1283
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,079
moments for me at least like the the

1284
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:44,319
biggs contest was really interesting and

1285
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,560
and i finna just finished reading uh dr

1286
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,800
jeffrey mishlov's paper that that won

1287
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:50,400
the first uh

1288
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:51,760
for first place prize in that

1289
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,880
competition and was just fascinated by

1290
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,319
uh the amount of research that he

1291
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:58,240
compiled on the survival of

1292
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:00,720
consciousness after death you know so

1293
00:45:05,190 --> 00:45:03,760
there are all of these um

1294
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:05,200
you know threads that are kind of

1295
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,359
getting woven together and and they're

1296
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:09,680
going they're helping us kind of form

1297
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:12,160
this great greater picture

1298
00:45:16,829 --> 00:45:13,280
that

1299
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:16,839
sort of gives us

1300
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:20,480
the uh maybe the encouragement or you

1301
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,040
know it's it's a like a quiver a aaron

1302
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:25,119
or quiver that you can use to kind of

1303
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,400
move this

1304
00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:29,200
forward in not only and and kind of

1305
00:45:32,790 --> 00:45:30,400
engage in people that never thought

1306
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:32,800
about this before but also moving your

1307
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,560
own thinking forward in it as well

1308
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:39,520
and so you know i found 2021 to be kind

1309
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:42,880
of a hopeful year for the topic

1310
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,040
and i think that the

1311
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:47,440
you know looking ahead at this year you

1312
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:49,839
know there is a lot of optimism that you

1313
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:51,680
know while

1314
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:54,640
we recognize after it being

1315
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:56,160
you know four years since the new york

1316
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:57,599
times article

1317
00:46:00,470 --> 00:45:58,800
that uh

1318
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,480
it's not going to be an overnight thing

1319
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:02,240
i think people have kind of come to that

1320
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:03,839
place where it's not like

1321
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:05,200
it's going to happen and tomorrow we're

1322
00:46:08,230 --> 00:46:06,880
going to get all these answers we're now

1323
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:08,240
we're now kind of getting comfortable

1324
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:09,760
with that truth that it's going to take

1325
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:12,400
some time to get where we're going and

1326
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:15,520
that whatever answers may come

1327
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,880
won't

1328
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,400
end the discussion you know they're

1329
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:20,079
really just going to

1330
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:22,880
broaden the discussion and i think what

1331
00:46:27,270 --> 00:46:24,560
i'm really looking forward to and very

1332
00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:27,280
and very fascinated by is sort of

1333
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,079
how what what quality what character

1334
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:32,640
does this conversation take on

1335
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:35,200
once people that don't think about it

1336
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:37,200
all the time begin to engage with it you

1337
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:38,560
know what what

1338
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:40,000
what questions do they bring to the

1339
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:41,839
table

1340
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:44,160
know how does a a greater public

1341
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:47,359
awareness influence the topic itself and

1342
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:49,839
and two let's not forget whatever these

1343
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,400
others are you know how responsive are

1344
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:54,000
they going to be

1345
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,640
to our efforts to understand it uh

1346
00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:58,480
presuming that we are putting into place

1347
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:01,040
more formal efforts to do so so what are

1348
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,319
what are these other things what are

1349
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:04,560
these others going to do as we kind of

1350
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:06,640
reach out for it will it reach back a

1351
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,280
little bit and reciprocate in kind i

1352
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:11,280
think that would be very interesting to

1353
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:12,000
see

1354
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,520
so yeah that's kind of how i'm thinking

1355
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:15,680
about this year and i don't know how you

1356
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,920
think about that in terms of the only i

1357
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,280
guess the short-term view but the

1358
00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:21,440
long-term view you know what are some

1359
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:24,000
things that you look for as uh you know

1360
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:25,920
kind of notable achievements that you're

1361
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:29,440
looking to see occur

1362
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:31,760
yeah it's a great question and um

1363
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,559
one one aspect of of this

1364
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:36,640
sort of from a sociological point of

1365
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:39,760
view that i've really considered a lot

1366
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:42,640
is um when it comes to disclosure there

1367
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,400
are you know different levels of

1368
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,160
consciousness different developmental

1369
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:48,640
levels different world views even within

1370
00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:50,480
just american culture let alone around

1371
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,520
the world

1372
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,680
and so you know i sometimes hear people

1373
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,119
say you know how

1374
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:57,520
how will our civilization respond and

1375
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:58,880
really we have

1376
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:01,599
uh numerous civilizations uh living on

1377
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:03,440
living on the planet right now

1378
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:04,400
and

1379
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:08,720
you know i really do mean we see reality

1380
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:11,760
very differently yes so um you know when

1381
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:13,280
these revelations

1382
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:14,400
do hit

1383
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,559
if they hit anytime soon

1384
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:19,200
then um then i think the responses will

1385
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:21,119
be very very different around the world

1386
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:22,880
and even within our own culture you know

1387
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:25,040
we've we've seen even within american

1388
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:26,559
society how

1389
00:48:31,270 --> 00:48:28,800
something like a pandemic is is handled

1390
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:31,280
very differently by different groups and

1391
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:33,520
trust in government you know is in you

1392
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:34,559
know

1393
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:36,160
is very different for different people

1394
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:37,520
you know and

1395
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:40,000
um and it's interesting to see

1396
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,480
how quickly even government begins to

1397
00:48:46,150 --> 00:48:44,240
panic a little bit when it feels like it

1398
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:46,160
doesn't know how to handle something

1399
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:47,680
when you have a once in a century

1400
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,599
pandemic come along there's a lot of

1401
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,040
scrambling to figure out what is the

1402
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,280
best way to do this what's the balance

1403
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:54,960
between the short-term harm and the

1404
00:48:58,549 --> 00:48:56,559
long-term harm

1405
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,559
how do you balance you know economic

1406
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:00,640
concerns with trying to make sure as few

1407
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,119
people as possible die from the pandemic

1408
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:05,280
these are really difficult questions

1409
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:07,760
without easy answers right

1410
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:09,040
and then

1411
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:10,640
then you think about something like the

1412
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:13,760
revelation that you know we are

1413
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:16,400
being visited by and perhaps have been

1414
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:19,760
cohabitating all along without realizing

1415
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,079
with highly sophisticated non-human

1416
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:24,559
intelligence that basically

1417
00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:27,200
plays us like they are higher on the on

1418
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,480
the food chain than we are um some

1419
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:32,000
people who have a perspective that you

1420
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:33,440
know

1421
00:49:37,349 --> 00:49:36,160
all there is in reality is human beings

1422
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:37,359
and animals

1423
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:39,200
and then you've got angels and demons

1424
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:41,280
basically some people have that

1425
00:49:45,030 --> 00:49:42,800
perspective in different religions so

1426
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:45,040
both within fundamentalist christianity

1427
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:46,720
as well as fundamentalist islam for

1428
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:47,839
instance

1429
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:48,720
so

1430
00:49:53,829 --> 00:49:51,920
when they see these others walk onto the

1431
00:49:56,309 --> 00:49:53,839
scene they immediately go okay either

1432
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:56,319
they're angelic or demonic

1433
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:57,680
they're going to have a very different

1434
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,040
response

1435
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:01,440
uh than someone who says

1436
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:02,960
looks at the fruit of it and says wait a

1437
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:05,440
second they're here assuming they are

1438
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:08,319
here to for instance provide technology

1439
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:10,240
and to help us sort of evolve because

1440
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:11,680
that's one of the narratives right

1441
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:13,440
there's numerous narratives within the

1442
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:15,119
ufo phenomenon one of them is that

1443
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:16,480
they're here to help us evolve our

1444
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:17,680
consciousness

1445
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:19,680
and that part of them showing up at this

1446
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,280
period in our history is because we're

1447
00:50:25,109 --> 00:50:23,680
at the precipice of self-destruction

1448
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:25,119
um

1449
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,800
so some people will look at that and say

1450
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:28,240
that's a good thing whereas other people

1451
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:30,240
no matter what evidence is on the table

1452
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:31,920
suggesting they're here to help if they

1453
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:32,800
are

1454
00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:33,680
um

1455
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,280
then there will still be some people who

1456
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:36,640
refuse to believe that so then you've

1457
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,440
got a class class of civilizations

1458
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:41,200
just within the human population right

1459
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:42,720
right so

1460
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:44,160
but what's fascinating to me and all

1461
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:45,119
that

1462
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,400
but

1463
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,559
you know when i spoke to ross coulthart

1464
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:52,880
uh last year late last year

1465
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,559
he made it clear that the sources he's

1466
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,119
talking to in the intelligence community

1467
00:51:02,309 --> 00:50:59,599
uh say that the the phenomenon one

1468
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:02,319
aspect of it anyway is ramping up so

1469
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:05,200
we're talking about the the vehicles or

1470
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,040
the phenomena that's being encountered

1471
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:09,119
out on the oceans right that that seems

1472
00:51:13,349 --> 00:51:11,280
to be increasing both in

1473
00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:13,359
uh the number of vehicles that are seen

1474
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:16,240
and how often they're seen you know uh

1475
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,800
so it doesn't seem like they're you know

1476
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,079
peering over the horizon then

1477
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,480
disappearing again they are making their

1478
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:24,319
presence known you know it's it's kind

1479
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:27,440
of a blatant here we are what do you

1480
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:29,680
think what are you gonna do about it um

1481
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:32,400
so it seems like there's there's either

1482
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,880
a direct intention to engage with us or

1483
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,960
to to see how we'll respond whether it's

1484
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:38,720
a test or whatever well the

1485
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:40,400
perhaps the phenomenon wants to see how

1486
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:43,440
the governments will respond um

1487
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:44,240
but

1488
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:46,720
what's fascinating to me is that if it's

1489
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:48,400
true that there's this ramping up going

1490
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,599
on

1491
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:51,599
not by government coming forward and not

1492
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:53,359
by you know more people coming forward

1493
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:56,400
necessarily but by the phenomenon itself

1494
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:58,559
engaging with us differently than it has

1495
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:01,119
in the past then that is the x factor

1496
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:02,640
that it's very difficult to know what's

1497
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:04,800
going to happen and as much as we talk

1498
00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:08,160
about disclosure and the secret keepers

1499
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:10,960
that may become irrelevant if this ramps

1500
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:13,760
up all the more um you know that's the

1501
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:15,839
biggest thing i'm looking for is

1502
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:18,160
is it is it demonstrably true that the

1503
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:20,079
ramping up is happening and is that just

1504
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:22,160
one aspect of the phenomenon or is it

1505
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:23,839
more than that is there cooperation

1506
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:26,240
amongst different intelligences

1507
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:28,880
and and what does that mean in terms of

1508
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:32,880
the near future yeah totally um

1509
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:35,200
you know and i kind of posted this on

1510
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:37,680
twitter the other day um

1511
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:39,680
i think it was uh yesterday that yeah

1512
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:41,040
what uh

1513
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,720
there's a thought experiment you know so

1514
00:52:46,390 --> 00:52:44,960
if you if you are this intelligence and

1515
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:46,400
you have this you know kind of high

1516
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:48,400
technology you know what are the things

1517
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:52,000
you'd be looking for in humanity

1518
00:52:56,710 --> 00:52:54,880
uh to kind of give that technology or

1519
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:56,720
share that technology with us you know

1520
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,880
what would you be kind of signs or

1521
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,720
things you would be looking for to see

1522
00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:02,640
and i got a lot of interesting responses

1523
00:53:06,549 --> 00:53:04,400
to that but you know your

1524
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:06,559
your comment about the kind of diversity

1525
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:07,520
of

1526
00:53:11,430 --> 00:53:09,280
uh human culture

1527
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:11,440
you know to me

1528
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:14,160
it points out a significant issue in

1529
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:16,000
this entire relationship and that is

1530
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:17,040
that

1531
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,079
uh

1532
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,559
you know if we are

1533
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:22,559
going to enter into a relationship with

1534
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:24,160
whatever this is

1535
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:26,079
uh and as you've pointed out they're

1536
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,440
very good at pointing out it could be a

1537
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:29,440
multitude of different things

1538
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:30,240
uh

1539
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:33,040
there need to be in place

1540
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:35,920
you know sort of some degree of

1541
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,440
you know kind of like predictable

1542
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:39,839
assurances that

1543
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,760
we can

1544
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:44,319
utilize the technology if it is shared

1545
00:53:49,670 --> 00:53:46,640
with us in in some form in some way that

1546
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:49,680
would be responsible um and if it's not

1547
00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:51,920
shared with us at all

1548
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:54,640
well let's say that they you know revere

1549
00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:57,599
reveal themselves more overtly

1550
00:54:01,510 --> 00:54:00,319
and there is no

1551
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:01,520
real

1552
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,760
relationship that is built it's just

1553
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:05,359
they're here and they're kind of just

1554
00:54:09,190 --> 00:54:06,559
ever present

1555
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,200
you know that changes the dynamic uh

1556
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:11,440
quite dramatically you know the the the

1557
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:13,119
power dynamic is

1558
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:15,599
is really very much uh shifted

1559
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:17,920
uh in their favor

1560
00:54:21,910 --> 00:54:19,920
uh at least and you know we could argue

1561
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:21,920
that it always has been but but very

1562
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,880
visibly in their favor in that situation

1563
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:26,400
what i would hope to see and this is

1564
00:54:31,109 --> 00:54:29,040
just maybe my inner optimism is that if

1565
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,119
the phenomenon does become more of an

1566
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:33,520
active player

1567
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:35,760
in uh in human

1568
00:54:39,750 --> 00:54:38,640
affairs that that it is more relational

1569
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,760
that there is

1570
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:41,200
you know some

1571
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:44,079
level of uh cooperation

1572
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:46,079
uh that there is uh some you know

1573
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:48,000
scientific discovery there is something

1574
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,640
that kind of allows us to

1575
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,400
gain a greater and more mature

1576
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:54,960
perspective on what it means to be human

1577
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:57,680
beings what it means to be uh

1578
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:00,480
in a sort of humans and or earthlings

1579
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,559
you know our place in the in the grander

1580
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:04,400
galaxy you know those are the things

1581
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:06,720
that i would really be looking to see uh

1582
00:55:10,230 --> 00:55:07,520
and be

1583
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:10,240
very hopeful for um and you know because

1584
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:15,190
it's it's fairly clear to me anyway at

1585
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:17,280
least from the reported phenomenon that

1586
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:19,680
that there's there are so many layers

1587
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:22,240
that exist that we do not understand

1588
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:23,599
you know that that our current

1589
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,240
perception of reality

1590
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:28,799
is incredibly limited in scope

1591
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:31,520
um and and if you look take a historical

1592
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:33,599
view even just looking back at our own

1593
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,359
past look at our own science uh you know

1594
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,280
you can go back really every few

1595
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:41,680
generations and kind of see their the

1596
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,240
the hubris and the science of the day

1597
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,400
that you know this is how it works this

1598
00:55:50,230 --> 00:55:48,799
is what we think is going on and we

1599
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:50,240
can't conceive of anything that would

1600
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,680
that would come along that would be any

1601
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:53,200
different than what's happening right

1602
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:55,280
now or whatever we can conceive of as

1603
00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:56,880
just a slightly better version of what

1604
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:59,200
we have right now but if you advance

1605
00:56:03,829 --> 00:56:01,440
that that clock and and you you look

1606
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,839
ahead in in history to now

1607
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,160
uh you know and take now as a comparison

1608
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:08,079
to say a few hundred years ago the kinds

1609
00:56:12,549 --> 00:56:10,240
of things that that we're doing and and

1610
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:12,559
uh and working with and

1611
00:56:16,549 --> 00:56:14,000
the way in which we're expanding out

1612
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:16,559
into our own galaxy

1613
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,000
you know these are things that would

1614
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:20,480
have just seemed totally fantastical so

1615
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:22,720
you know you take that concept just over

1616
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:24,000
the span of a few hundred years and

1617
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:26,880
extrapolate that out to a thousand years

1618
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:28,799
many millennia you know a million years

1619
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,880
a billion years and the universe is

1620
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:32,960
incredibly old

1621
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:34,240
and if there have been you know sort of

1622
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:35,839
advanced intelligences around for that

1623
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:38,799
long you know who knows what their sort

1624
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:41,520
of perception of reality is their master

1625
00:56:44,549 --> 00:56:43,680
of base reality that there's so much

1626
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:44,559
there

1627
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,359
that it will keep us uh busy it will

1628
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:49,440
keep the the philosophers and the

1629
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:51,760
scientists and you know and the artists

1630
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:54,079
you know all of us busy for a very long

1631
00:56:57,910 --> 00:56:56,319
time and and to me that

1632
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:57,920
you know it feels kind of daunting in a

1633
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:59,760
way it's like there's this sort of

1634
00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:01,839
modern need to like know i want to know

1635
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:03,760
i want to have the answer at the same

1636
00:57:07,349 --> 00:57:04,640
time

1637
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:07,359
i think if you're thoughtful about it

1638
00:57:11,910 --> 00:57:09,760
you'll come to a place that that that

1639
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:11,920
reality becomes very exciting you know

1640
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:13,839
that hopefully becomes

1641
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:14,640
uh

1642
00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:17,119
the the frame that you put on

1643
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,880
uh in order to

1644
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,640
you know perceive the entire process

1645
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:22,880
that it very much is a process and we're

1646
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:25,920
we are players in a long uh sort of

1647
00:57:30,710 --> 00:57:28,400
string of players uh we are playing a

1648
00:57:32,309 --> 00:57:30,720
part in kind of that that journey and

1649
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:32,319
and it's an important part not to

1650
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:35,839
diminish the role that we have right now

1651
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:37,440
yeah i mean it's

1652
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:39,520
it really is fascinating and you know i

1653
00:57:43,270 --> 00:57:40,880
was just thinking as you were talking

1654
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:43,280
there about you know the possibility

1655
00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:44,400
that

1656
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,079
you know luila zondo has talked about

1657
00:57:50,549 --> 00:57:48,640
this for instance you know what what if

1658
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:50,559
uh there are some of the others who are

1659
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:52,640
here that for them we're more of an

1660
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:55,040
afterthought you know we're

1661
00:57:59,430 --> 00:57:56,559
the same way that we think about you

1662
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:59,440
know a monkey species in the jungle like

1663
00:58:01,589 --> 00:58:00,480
yeah we know they're there but they

1664
00:58:03,190 --> 00:58:01,599
don't really

1665
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:03,200
affect the way we live our lives and we

1666
00:58:06,069 --> 00:58:05,280
run our civilization in city centers

1667
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:06,079
right

1668
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:08,160
um what if that's how some of them look

1669
00:58:12,789 --> 00:58:10,000
at us that will be i think incredibly

1670
00:58:15,349 --> 00:58:12,799
destabilizing and will challenge the you

1671
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:15,359
know egoic mentality of much of humanity

1672
00:58:19,990 --> 00:58:17,839
that's the one thing i don't think

1673
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:20,000
hardly anyone in sort of mainstream

1674
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:22,720
culture is prepared for that you know

1675
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:24,160
that they're here they've been here all

1676
00:58:27,349 --> 00:58:25,520
along and they don't actually think that

1677
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:27,359
much about us you know we're

1678
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,720
kind of like another species on the

1679
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:31,920
landscape you know very very few uh if

1680
00:58:35,589 --> 00:58:33,680
ever have you seen a scientific or a

1681
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,599
science fiction movie come out where

1682
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:37,440
it's like oh yeah the humans

1683
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:39,280
whatever you know that's not what you

1684
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:40,640
see what happens we're usually the

1685
00:58:44,470 --> 00:58:42,480
center of the story

1686
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:44,480
land on the white house lawn you know

1687
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:47,119
they either say you know we're here to

1688
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:48,559
be your friends or they're here to give

1689
00:58:52,309 --> 00:58:50,160
us a warning but we're always like

1690
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:52,319
central to the story right so i think

1691
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:54,480
one of the biggest shake-ups will be if

1692
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:56,960
there's for some of these others we're

1693
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,520
actually not central to the story um

1694
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:01,680
that will be a shock to the system

1695
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:04,160
because you know ever since we you know

1696
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,640
learned how to use fire and

1697
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:08,640
you know invented the wheel we've

1698
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:10,079
thought of ourselves as the top of the

1699
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,599
chain so

1700
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,920
to not be and to not even be that big a

1701
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,359
deal

1702
00:59:20,069 --> 00:59:17,599
for some of them uh will be will be

1703
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:20,079
incredibly shocking so

1704
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:21,839
you know it is just so many ways it can

1705
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,240
go and and when we talk about disclosure

1706
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:25,920
or making contact with these others

1707
00:59:29,990 --> 00:59:28,160
again the question i come back to is

1708
00:59:32,710 --> 00:59:30,000
which group of the others do you mean

1709
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:32,720
you know um i think that

1710
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:34,400
because like you said there uh the

1711
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:36,559
universe is a very old place and because

1712
00:59:40,630 --> 00:59:38,559
now even with cutting-edge physics we

1713
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:40,640
think it's likely there's a multiverse

1714
00:59:44,069 --> 00:59:41,839
and there could be

1715
00:59:46,069 --> 00:59:44,079
realities living right alongside us so

1716
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:46,079
that opens up all sorts of possibilities

1717
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:47,440
you know we could have

1718
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,520
parallel humans who evolved slightly

1719
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:51,200
differently because as small you know

1720
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:53,680
the butterfly effect one small change

1721
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:55,920
you know a hundred thousand years ago

1722
00:59:59,109 --> 00:59:57,599
completely changed the way they think

1723
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:59,119
maybe they're telepathic but whereas

1724
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:00,960
we're not even though we seem to have

1725
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:03,440
that dormant possibility in us

1726
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:06,000
there's you know it just you you step

1727
01:00:08,470 --> 01:00:07,599
back and you go

1728
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:08,480
uh

1729
01:00:11,589 --> 01:00:10,079
i don't know how to put a box around

1730
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:11,599
this you know there's so many

1731
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:13,040
possibilities

1732
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:16,079
and my sense is that you know it's it's

1733
01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:18,240
more complex more colorful than we can

1734
01:00:20,789 --> 01:00:19,760
even conceive of

1735
01:00:22,710 --> 01:00:20,799
um

1736
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,720
and and so that leaves us in a very

1737
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:24,960
interesting place um

1738
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:26,480
and you know what that means for the

1739
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:28,720
future uh i don't know to be honest with

1740
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:30,480
you i'm surprised

1741
01:00:33,910 --> 01:00:32,160
that speaking again of that ramping up

1742
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:33,920
we're seeing by some element of the

1743
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,480
phenomenon whatever that is

1744
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:38,160
that is really fascinating to me that

1745
01:00:42,230 --> 01:00:39,599
that is probably the one thing that

1746
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:42,240
really you know tickles my brain a lot

1747
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:43,520
because

1748
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,720
i i ask myself to what end you know and

1749
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:48,640
there's even been discussion of

1750
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:51,599
the military trying to sort of bait some

1751
01:00:55,750 --> 01:00:53,599
elements of the phenomenon right by by

1752
01:00:58,069 --> 01:00:55,760
running certain military exercises

1753
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:58,079
all with the intention you know of

1754
01:01:01,349 --> 01:00:59,280
actually

1755
01:01:02,950 --> 01:01:01,359
causing a manifestation a sighting you

1756
01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:02,960
know and

1757
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:05,040
while i'm you know suspicious of this

1758
01:01:09,109 --> 01:01:07,440
notion that the phenomenon responds like

1759
01:01:10,309 --> 01:01:09,119
an ifl statement that if we do something

1760
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:10,319
it does something i don't think it's

1761
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:11,680
that simple

1762
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:12,640
um

1763
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:14,319
but the fact that this is happening at

1764
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,400
all is fascinating to me that it is

1765
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,240
ramping up you know

1766
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:19,920
we're so used to cautioning ourselves

1767
01:01:23,510 --> 01:01:21,920
and saying listen

1768
01:01:25,349 --> 01:01:23,520
every year

1769
01:01:26,710 --> 01:01:25,359
you know someone says this is the end of

1770
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:26,720
the world you know or this is going to

1771
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:28,400
happen this year you know

1772
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:30,000
the savior is going to show up this

1773
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:31,359
month right you know

1774
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:33,280
um you know for you and i coming from a

1775
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:34,799
religious background

1776
01:01:38,069 --> 01:01:37,200
jesus is coming soon

1777
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,079
you know meaning that he's going to

1778
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:40,319
reveal himself in the second coming has

1779
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:42,000
happened every six months since we were

1780
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:43,520
born right and going back hundreds of

1781
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:45,520
years thousands of years

1782
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:47,599
so and yet human beings don't stop doing

1783
01:01:50,789 --> 01:01:49,440
that right um

1784
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:50,799
so

1785
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:52,480
in the same way it we have to be

1786
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:54,160
cautious to not think that this is

1787
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:55,760
really going to happen soon but

1788
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:57,599
something's going to change soon but at

1789
01:02:00,789 --> 01:01:59,039
the same time when you look at it

1790
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:00,799
objectively and you see that ramping up

1791
01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:03,119
you can't help but ask yourself and and

1792
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:04,960
you tied to that the fact that you know

1793
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:06,880
our government is finally taking it

1794
01:02:11,270 --> 01:02:09,039
seriously that is doesn't have the same

1795
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:11,280
snicker factor that it did before we

1796
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:13,200
don't always have x-files music playing

1797
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:15,839
alongside these segments uh says that

1798
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:18,400
something i think really is changing

1799
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:19,280
and

1800
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:21,839
is that part of another cog in the wheel

1801
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:23,920
that's that's meant to be part of them

1802
01:02:27,670 --> 01:02:25,599
introducing themselves to us these are

1803
01:02:28,789 --> 01:02:27,680
right all fascinating questions which

1804
01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:28,799
you know i could go a hundred different

1805
01:02:32,829 --> 01:02:31,119
directions right i mean is our yeah is

1806
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:32,839
our science and the

1807
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:35,280
the the uh

1808
01:02:38,549 --> 01:02:36,240
kind of

1809
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:38,559
frontier of our scientific discovery are

1810
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:41,119
we are we really kind of getting close

1811
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:43,200
brushing up against the cusp

1812
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:44,079
of

1813
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:48,880
we haven't before you know is it are we

1814
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:51,200
are there precursors which is i think

1815
01:02:55,829 --> 01:02:53,119
what you're essentially saying that

1816
01:02:56,950 --> 01:02:55,839
there are precursors that must come into

1817
01:02:59,109 --> 01:02:56,960
place

1818
01:03:00,789 --> 01:02:59,119
uh before

1819
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,799
you know all of the the picture is

1820
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,559
revealed or more of the picture is

1821
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,480
revealed and

1822
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:06,400
you know i think that that

1823
01:03:11,190 --> 01:03:08,640
you know not anthropomorphized it too

1824
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:11,200
much but you know if we were to take our

1825
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:14,000
own sort of perspective on this

1826
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:16,720
uh if we

1827
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:18,240
were able to

1828
01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:22,000
observe an intelligent species on earth

1829
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:24,000
that was developing its own science

1830
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:27,119
using its own tools and coming along and

1831
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:27,920
they

1832
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:29,200
had a

1833
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:31,839
rudimentary awareness of of our presence

1834
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:33,119
let's say that there was there was some

1835
01:03:36,870 --> 01:03:34,880
aquatic species that was doing this you

1836
01:03:38,309 --> 01:03:36,880
know they just didn't quite understand

1837
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:38,319
you know who we were whatever because

1838
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:40,400
their sphere is in the ocean ours is up

1839
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:41,200
here

1840
01:03:44,230 --> 01:03:42,160
uh

1841
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:44,240
you know i think i would like to think

1842
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:47,119
that we would um

1843
01:03:49,910 --> 01:03:48,480
we would be a little bit thoughtful

1844
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:49,920
about you know kind of interactions

1845
01:03:52,069 --> 01:03:50,720
there

1846
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:52,079
uh

1847
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:53,200
you know

1848
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:55,119
at least some of us would be maybe not

1849
01:03:59,430 --> 01:03:56,880
all of us but we would we would at least

1850
01:04:01,589 --> 01:03:59,440
try to be very thoughtful about how

1851
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:01,599
we relate with them and wait for that

1852
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:03,599
right moment before

1853
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:05,839
uh sort of revealing to them hey you

1854
01:04:10,230 --> 01:04:07,280
know this

1855
01:04:12,630 --> 01:04:10,240
we're here and uh and we you know we

1856
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:12,640
have this to offer you and and uh and

1857
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:15,119
what will content sort of to this wider

1858
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:16,880
experience that you were unaware of

1859
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:19,920
before but even in that analogy uh which

1860
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:22,160
may be a good one maybe not but in that

1861
01:04:26,150 --> 01:04:23,280
analogy

1862
01:04:28,230 --> 01:04:26,160
the uh the ocean dwelling intelligence

1863
01:04:29,349 --> 01:04:28,240
can still only dwell in the ocean right

1864
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:29,359
so

1865
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:31,359
uh you know that there is this kind of

1866
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:33,920
translation problem that may always be

1867
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:35,119
present

1868
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,160
because of uh the way in which we are

1869
01:04:43,670 --> 01:04:40,799
our evolutionary sort of brains perceive

1870
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:43,680
reality itself and we may be incapable

1871
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:46,079
of really understanding uh the scope of

1872
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:48,480
reality as it is known to these other

1873
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:50,240
intelligences and on that point i think

1874
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:51,359
it makes it

1875
01:04:57,430 --> 01:04:53,520
what makes me curious about our is our

1876
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:57,440
technology so as our technology advances

1877
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:01,039
and uh as we get closer and closer to

1878
01:05:05,029 --> 01:05:02,400
uh

1879
01:05:06,870 --> 01:05:05,039
we we build build more specialized ai

1880
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:06,880
and and maybe one day we'll get to a

1881
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:10,319
general ai but having an intelligence uh

1882
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:12,960
that is non-human that we can interact

1883
01:05:17,029 --> 01:05:15,280
with and that can kind of serve as that

1884
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:17,039
translator to

1885
01:05:20,309 --> 01:05:19,119
wider experience that we don't have a

1886
01:05:22,789 --> 01:05:20,319
direct

1887
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:22,799
sensory connection to what if that is

1888
01:05:27,349 --> 01:05:25,200
the link that is necessary to bridge the

1889
01:05:28,630 --> 01:05:27,359
gap you know what if we have to reach

1890
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:28,640
that point

1891
01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:31,680
where uh our technology can serve you

1892
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,319
know as that go between uh that that

1893
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:36,720
emissary to the phenomenon itself and

1894
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:38,480
and it strikes me too that the

1895
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:40,720
phenomenon if it's

1896
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:42,480
you know if it is sufficiently advanced

1897
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:44,960
i mean it has to have its own uh you

1898
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:47,599
know very very impressive technologies

1899
01:05:53,430 --> 01:05:50,880
that you know would either be um

1900
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:53,440
you know sort of cybernetic perhaps or

1901
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:54,480
or uh

1902
01:05:58,069 --> 01:05:56,799
you know non-biological entirely i mean

1903
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:58,079
who knows there are lots of different

1904
01:06:01,109 --> 01:06:00,319
ways you can look at that problem but

1905
01:06:03,270 --> 01:06:01,119
but

1906
01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:03,280
nevertheless an intelligent species is

1907
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:05,520
sort of always using

1908
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:08,079
its knowledge to craft these you know

1909
01:06:13,750 --> 01:06:11,039
sort of tools that expand its capability

1910
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:13,760
in the world that expand what it can do

1911
01:06:19,029 --> 01:06:15,920
and how it can interact with

1912
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:19,039
with with reality itself and so what are

1913
01:06:23,430 --> 01:06:21,119
the tools that these intelligences have

1914
01:06:25,349 --> 01:06:23,440
and use how connected are they with

1915
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:25,359
those what are the the technologies that

1916
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:27,839
we are developing can use how connected

1917
01:06:31,589 --> 01:06:29,920
are we with those and will there ever be

1918
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:31,599
kind of this you know sort of venn

1919
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:34,480
diagram merger of the two where where

1920
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:37,200
these these kinds of experiences and

1921
01:06:40,230 --> 01:06:38,880
technologies can kind of connect with

1922
01:06:41,829 --> 01:06:40,240
each other and

1923
01:06:43,910 --> 01:06:41,839
and help make sense of the other's

1924
01:06:46,390 --> 01:06:43,920
experience i think that would be you

1925
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:46,400
know really fascinating um

1926
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:47,599
and hopefully

1927
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:50,240
uh lead to sort of a new enlightenment

1928
01:06:54,390 --> 01:06:52,799
for us um as opposed to

1929
01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:54,400
you know kind of what i would

1930
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:56,079
i think my biggest fear would be a type

1931
01:06:58,789 --> 01:06:57,599
of um

1932
01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:58,799
you know kind of

1933
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:01,200
enslavement to it you know that we

1934
01:07:06,390 --> 01:07:03,839
that whatever is great about humanity

1935
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:06,400
kind of becomes really subjugated to the

1936
01:07:10,870 --> 01:07:08,880
these technological advances

1937
01:07:13,190 --> 01:07:10,880
i would hope that we don't lose those

1938
01:07:15,750 --> 01:07:13,200
things and we become

1939
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:15,760
monolithic in the process you know that

1940
01:07:20,470 --> 01:07:18,240
that that worries me a lot that we don't

1941
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:20,480
lose our diversity of of culture and

1942
01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:22,079
experience and

1943
01:07:25,990 --> 01:07:24,559
and uh when i read accounts of different

1944
01:07:28,309 --> 01:07:26,000
you know species and whatnot it all

1945
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,319
sounds pretty uh you know kind of one

1946
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:30,319
dimensional you know you don't you don't

1947
01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:31,440
get a sense that there's a lot of

1948
01:07:36,470 --> 01:07:34,319
diversity in that particular

1949
01:07:39,430 --> 01:07:36,480
uh species but you know i could be wrong

1950
01:07:42,230 --> 01:07:39,440
about that and i hope that i am

1951
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:42,240
yeah i mean that that in itself uh is a

1952
01:07:46,069 --> 01:07:44,640
is a fascinating sort of piece to pay

1953
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:46,079
attention to right

1954
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:47,039
um

1955
01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:48,160
you could look at that two different

1956
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:49,680
ways you could say that lack of

1957
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:51,839
diversity is because they've kind of you

1958
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:52,559
know

1959
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:54,720
have kind of a borg borg mentality you

1960
01:07:59,109 --> 01:07:56,720
know from star trek where they have kind

1961
01:08:00,549 --> 01:07:59,119
of one collective mind like a like an

1962
01:08:01,349 --> 01:08:00,559
ant species

1963
01:08:03,270 --> 01:08:01,359
um

1964
01:08:07,270 --> 01:08:03,280
or you could say that

1965
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:07,280
we just lack the sophistication to

1966
01:08:11,109 --> 01:08:09,119
notice the nuance differences because

1967
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:11,119
they are a different species you know

1968
01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:12,640
when we look at

1969
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:15,920
um you know 100 koalas you know they

1970
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:18,000
might seem very similar to us right uh

1971
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:19,839
perhaps to them they notice really

1972
01:08:22,229 --> 01:08:21,520
distinct differences so part of it's

1973
01:08:24,870 --> 01:08:22,239
that

1974
01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:24,880
challenge of you know cross species kind

1975
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:28,080
of analysis and and how much nuance

1976
01:08:31,269 --> 01:08:29,839
you know are we aware of with them you

1977
01:08:33,510 --> 01:08:31,279
know so for you and i when we're talking

1978
01:08:35,590 --> 01:08:33,520
or any two people are talking

1979
01:08:36,950 --> 01:08:35,600
we've evolved to be able to pick up the

1980
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:36,960
smallest difference in our facial

1981
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:38,880
features our body language our tone of

1982
01:08:42,470 --> 01:08:40,080
voice

1983
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:42,480
such a rich tapestry that we can draw

1984
01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:45,359
from right to communicate and

1985
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:47,120
one wonders if we have to start from

1986
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:49,440
scratch to some degree you know or do we

1987
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:51,839
you know with these others uh they might

1988
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:53,839
have you know you often hear again in

1989
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:55,520
the literature and you'll you'll hear me

1990
01:08:58,630 --> 01:08:57,520
say that a lot on this show

1991
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:58,640
because i think what we have to keep

1992
01:09:01,749 --> 01:09:00,159
going back to is the data what does the

1993
01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:01,759
data tell us what is what what are the

1994
01:09:05,430 --> 01:09:03,759
different narratives coming through

1995
01:09:06,789 --> 01:09:05,440
one of them is that they

1996
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,799
they have

1997
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:08,400
they're kind of featureless they don't

1998
01:09:10,789 --> 01:09:09,920
have the same sort of

1999
01:09:13,430 --> 01:09:10,799
you know

2000
01:09:15,110 --> 01:09:13,440
array of facial features that we do you

2001
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:15,120
don't often hear them i hear about them

2002
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:17,040
breaking out in a huge smile you know

2003
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:18,319
things like that

2004
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:20,400
and yet they can communicate

2005
01:09:24,789 --> 01:09:22,000
rich

2006
01:09:27,749 --> 01:09:24,799
emotion sometimes through telepathic

2007
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:27,759
means right so you don't need a rich

2008
01:09:33,189 --> 01:09:30,560
diversity of facial features if you can

2009
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:33,199
share direct experience of your inner

2010
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:34,640
self right which is what we hear so

2011
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:36,480
often in fact for many experiencers

2012
01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:38,400
that's completely overwhelming

2013
01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:40,480
so again just another piece that we

2014
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:42,080
bring to the picture you know is is it

2015
01:09:45,749 --> 01:09:43,120
that they

2016
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:45,759
are you know kind of a a mono culture

2017
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:47,120
and they're all very similar and they

2018
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:48,799
don't think for themselves

2019
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:51,120
or is it that we don't have the uh

2020
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:53,359
capacity yet to notice those differences

2021
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:55,199
at that degree because we have no

2022
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,080
evolutionary history doing that and and

2023
01:10:02,070 --> 01:10:00,480
when we first make contact

2024
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:02,080
maybe that's just the beginning of that

2025
01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:03,920
process you know i think back to a movie

2026
01:10:08,229 --> 01:10:06,560
like arrival uh to to pick up on what

2027
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,239
you were saying there about

2028
01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:10,320
you know what if a species is very

2029
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:11,920
different thinks very differently their

2030
01:10:16,229 --> 01:10:13,760
experience of reality itself is

2031
01:10:18,149 --> 01:10:16,239
different time right we we know going

2032
01:10:20,070 --> 01:10:18,159
back to einstein that you know time is

2033
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:20,080
this persistent illusion the way that we

2034
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:21,520
experience it

2035
01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:23,760
uh so we know that right we sort of

2036
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:25,679
cognitively can not our heads at the

2037
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:28,400
notion that what we think of as time is

2038
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:30,719
is more an illusion than anything else

2039
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:33,360
so we shouldn't expect

2040
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:35,280
other species i would argue to to

2041
01:10:39,189 --> 01:10:37,040
experience reality in the same way

2042
01:10:40,470 --> 01:10:39,199
because we already know that reality

2043
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:40,480
probably is different than the way we

2044
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:42,159
experience it so

2045
01:10:46,390 --> 01:10:44,560
yeah how that's going gonna work uh is

2046
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:46,400
is fascinating and

2047
01:10:49,510 --> 01:10:47,679
i think one of the things i'm looking

2048
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:49,520
forward to um

2049
01:10:52,630 --> 01:10:51,440
doing on this show

2050
01:10:56,310 --> 01:10:52,640
is

2051
01:10:58,149 --> 01:10:56,320
literature you know like different uh

2052
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:58,159
narratives that exist because partly my

2053
01:11:01,830 --> 01:11:00,159
brain right now just goes do i want to

2054
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:01,840
talk about this angle or this angle or

2055
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,520
this angle yep and probably what's

2056
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:05,520
better to do is to sort of like take

2057
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:07,600
different pieces of the the totality of

2058
01:11:11,030 --> 01:11:09,760
the literature and talk about that you

2059
01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:11,040
know um

2060
01:11:15,510 --> 01:11:13,120
but one thing you you brought up that

2061
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:15,520
that really made me think was um you

2062
01:11:20,790 --> 01:11:17,679
were talking about you know technology

2063
01:11:22,390 --> 01:11:20,800
and ai and where we are as a species

2064
01:11:25,030 --> 01:11:22,400
forgetting for a second the ufo

2065
01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:25,040
phenomenon right so we as a species are

2066
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:26,560
are approaching this technological

2067
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:28,560
singularity right where i think

2068
01:11:33,430 --> 01:11:30,320
sometimes it's hard for us to have

2069
01:11:34,950 --> 01:11:33,440
perspective on how just how quickly

2070
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:34,960
things are changing

2071
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:36,719
uh when you look at the you know the

2072
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:38,560
last hundred years

2073
01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:40,719
and how that's just the the smallest

2074
01:11:43,510 --> 01:11:41,760
slice

2075
01:11:45,830 --> 01:11:43,520
of time compared to the history of our

2076
01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:45,840
species let alone our planet our galaxy

2077
01:11:49,189 --> 01:11:48,320
the age of the universe

2078
01:11:52,149 --> 01:11:49,199
um

2079
01:11:55,189 --> 01:11:52,159
the the the the rapidity with which

2080
01:11:57,669 --> 01:11:55,199
we're increasing this this curve towards

2081
01:11:59,270 --> 01:11:57,679
this you know technological singularity

2082
01:12:00,229 --> 01:11:59,280
is astonishing

2083
01:12:05,750 --> 01:12:00,239
and

2084
01:12:07,830 --> 01:12:05,760
that along with things like you know

2085
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:07,840
still having a mentality where we have

2086
01:12:13,270 --> 01:12:10,320
nuclear weapons pointed at each other um

2087
01:12:15,030 --> 01:12:13,280
and that we we contemplate bio weapons

2088
01:12:16,149 --> 01:12:15,040
in the midst of a pandemic and things

2089
01:12:17,830 --> 01:12:16,159
like that

2090
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:17,840
that part of the reason they're here is

2091
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:18,640
not

2092
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:21,360
about them but about us that that we are

2093
01:12:25,110 --> 01:12:23,440
at a particular point where

2094
01:12:27,189 --> 01:12:25,120
it's not that we think of ourselves with

2095
01:12:28,950 --> 01:12:27,199
this self-importance but rather we we

2096
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:28,960
look at it and say

2097
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:30,640
maybe we just need help you know maybe

2098
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:32,880
we just actually have some humility and

2099
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:35,360
say look we're really we're dancing with

2100
01:12:38,390 --> 01:12:37,040
the devil so to speak here

2101
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:38,400
we are on the precipice of

2102
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:39,920
self-destruction

2103
01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:42,159
and and even if there is some element of

2104
01:12:46,550 --> 01:12:44,080
uh you know a prime directive kind of

2105
01:12:48,070 --> 01:12:46,560
mentality that like you use the analogy

2106
01:12:49,990 --> 01:12:48,080
of the species in the ocean that's

2107
01:12:51,590 --> 01:12:50,000
beginning to develop some rudimentary

2108
01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:51,600
technology

2109
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:54,320
yeah if you were looking on maybe the

2110
01:12:58,950 --> 01:12:56,400
one time you would say look let's make

2111
01:13:01,189 --> 01:12:58,960
an exception let's let's break our usual

2112
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:01,199
rule let's make contact is if you see

2113
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:03,360
that intelligence on the precipice of

2114
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:05,440
self-destruction which it's not a

2115
01:13:08,310 --> 01:13:07,120
stretch to imagine that that's how they

2116
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:08,320
look at us

2117
01:13:11,830 --> 01:13:09,840
um

2118
01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:11,840
you know and then i even think about the

2119
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:13,679
the the fascinating aspects that come

2120
01:13:16,229 --> 01:13:15,040
out of the literature that at first

2121
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,239
sound

2122
01:13:19,990 --> 01:13:18,159
bizarre and hard to believe and yet you

2123
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:20,000
hear it time and time again which is

2124
01:13:23,510 --> 01:13:22,239
that when we detonate nuclear weapons it

2125
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:23,520
some seems to have some sort of

2126
01:13:28,630 --> 01:13:26,640
interdimensional impact right that we

2127
01:13:30,229 --> 01:13:28,640
don't fully understand these others are

2128
01:13:31,750 --> 01:13:30,239
telling us some of them

2129
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:31,760
we don't understand the fabric of

2130
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:33,520
reality enough to know

2131
01:13:39,990 --> 01:13:37,040
the consequences uh for the larger sort

2132
01:13:41,990 --> 01:13:40,000
of inter-dimensional biosphere right

2133
01:13:43,350 --> 01:13:42,000
when we do things like that so again i

2134
01:13:45,830 --> 01:13:43,360
think we are

2135
01:13:47,590 --> 01:13:45,840
uh you know we are cavemen uh you know

2136
01:13:50,709 --> 01:13:47,600
at the precipice of

2137
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:50,719
of a whole new level of awareness here

2138
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:54,000
but but it is fascinating to think about

2139
01:13:57,590 --> 01:13:56,800
you know how where we are as a species

2140
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:57,600
uh

2141
01:14:01,430 --> 01:13:59,120
and moving towards this technological

2142
01:14:02,310 --> 01:14:01,440
singularity um

2143
01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:02,320
being on the precipice of

2144
01:14:05,590 --> 01:14:04,640
self-destruction at the same time as we

2145
01:14:08,149 --> 01:14:05,600
seem to be

2146
01:14:10,149 --> 01:14:08,159
seeing this ramping up and and even

2147
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:10,159
since you know look at the data even

2148
01:14:13,830 --> 01:14:11,920
since the the dawn of the atomic age

2149
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:13,840
basically there seems to have been a

2150
01:14:17,669 --> 01:14:16,000
major increase you know

2151
01:14:19,910 --> 01:14:17,679
trinity uh

2152
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:19,920
you know roswell everything seems to

2153
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,640
have spun up since then so

2154
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:24,480
uh what is that about you know you hear

2155
01:14:29,350 --> 01:14:25,360
different

2156
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:29,360
of the data but it's hard to argue with

2157
01:14:33,830 --> 01:14:31,440
the fact that something is going on yeah

2158
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:33,840
no for sure and uh you know that makes

2159
01:14:38,390 --> 01:14:36,880
me think too as we talk about the

2160
01:14:41,270 --> 01:14:38,400
about these others

2161
01:14:43,110 --> 01:14:41,280
and that and that term itself other

2162
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:43,120
you know we

2163
01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:44,719
and you know thinking about the show and

2164
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:46,000
kind of what we hope to kind of get out

2165
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:46,880
of it

2166
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:48,320
the

2167
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:54,640
is a process by which

2168
01:15:00,870 --> 01:14:58,800
we are engaging in in in an exercise in

2169
01:15:02,390 --> 01:15:00,880
self knowledge

2170
01:15:03,750 --> 01:15:02,400
as well as

2171
01:15:06,550 --> 01:15:03,760
other knowledge

2172
01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:06,560
you know so uh as we kind of do

2173
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:08,320
as we go through these discussions and

2174
01:15:11,590 --> 01:15:09,600
look at these

2175
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:11,600
look at the phenomenon through the the

2176
01:15:16,630 --> 01:15:13,199
various lenses

2177
01:15:17,990 --> 01:15:16,640
and frameworks that are available to us

2178
01:15:19,990 --> 01:15:18,000
we are

2179
01:15:21,510 --> 01:15:20,000
not just

2180
01:15:23,669 --> 01:15:21,520
hopefully

2181
01:15:26,550 --> 01:15:23,679
kind of filling in sort of the color

2182
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:26,560
that that is there uh for the the

2183
01:15:29,910 --> 01:15:29,040
variety of expressions that the others

2184
01:15:32,070 --> 01:15:29,920
take

2185
01:15:33,350 --> 01:15:32,080
but we are also i think

2186
01:15:36,310 --> 01:15:33,360
better

2187
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:36,320
manifesting our own sense of self our

2188
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:39,679
own sense of place within the world and

2189
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:42,239
history and the universe you know so

2190
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:45,360
these exercises of exploration really

2191
01:15:49,590 --> 01:15:47,440
help define who we are

2192
01:15:52,630 --> 01:15:49,600
uh and that has always been the case and

2193
01:15:55,110 --> 01:15:52,640
and maybe it is our technology that sort

2194
01:16:01,910 --> 01:15:58,709
you know pinnacle of achievement for us

2195
01:16:04,310 --> 01:16:01,920
as a species to kind of create

2196
01:16:05,510 --> 01:16:04,320
not through our biology but through our

2197
01:16:06,630 --> 01:16:05,520
intellect

2198
01:16:09,350 --> 01:16:06,640
and other

2199
01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:09,360
that is sort of in our image to use that

2200
01:16:12,870 --> 01:16:10,400
phrase

2201
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:12,880
um you know that is uniquely in our

2202
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:15,520
image you know that that brings us to a

2203
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,480
point

2204
01:16:20,229 --> 01:16:18,480
where

2205
01:16:21,750 --> 01:16:20,239
we are going to be faced with ourselves

2206
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:21,760
in a way that we've never been faced

2207
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:24,480
before we'll be faced with sort of new

2208
01:16:28,790 --> 01:16:26,400
i think truths about who we are and

2209
01:16:30,709 --> 01:16:28,800
maybe maybe they are there

2210
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:30,719
uh having gone through presumably that

2211
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:33,360
same exercise in their own past they are

2212
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,280
there to help us

2213
01:16:38,470 --> 01:16:37,120
kind of navigate those waters at least

2214
01:16:40,310 --> 01:16:38,480
some of them and maybe the others of

2215
01:16:42,630 --> 01:16:40,320
them as you said are completely

2216
01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:42,640
indifferent and and even in their

2217
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:44,000
indifference

2218
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:45,840
if that is the case you know we we have

2219
01:16:49,590 --> 01:16:48,000
to wrestle with that truth and it still

2220
01:16:51,430 --> 01:16:49,600
makes us i think

2221
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:51,440
more complete

2222
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:54,800
uh and and more mature uh in our sort of

2223
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,440
understanding of about who we are and

2224
01:17:01,030 --> 01:16:59,040
and what the universe is like and where

2225
01:17:02,630 --> 01:17:01,040
we are within it

2226
01:17:04,229 --> 01:17:02,640
but yeah as we kind of wrap up the show

2227
01:17:06,229 --> 01:17:04,239
i mean what are what are some things

2228
01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:06,239
that you're hoping that uh what are the

2229
01:17:09,830 --> 01:17:07,360
things you're looking forward to in the

2230
01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:09,840
show and uh you know where where are we

2231
01:17:16,790 --> 01:17:14,070
well i think we've kind of you know

2232
01:17:21,350 --> 01:17:16,800
touched on the fact that this is uh

2233
01:17:23,189 --> 01:17:21,360
uh an an insanely multifaceted topic um

2234
01:17:26,310 --> 01:17:23,199
you could do you know a hundred years of

2235
01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:26,320
shows and still barely be you know

2236
01:17:30,070 --> 01:17:27,679
getting to the the bottom of what's

2237
01:17:32,470 --> 01:17:30,080
really going on uh there's like i said

2238
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,480
because there's so few baselines

2239
01:17:37,669 --> 01:17:34,560
it makes it difficult to arrive at

2240
01:17:39,669 --> 01:17:37,679
certainty um but i think both you and i

2241
01:17:42,390 --> 01:17:39,679
are are okay with that and

2242
01:17:44,709 --> 01:17:42,400
are enjoying the journey and uh touching

2243
01:17:46,070 --> 01:17:44,719
on what you just said there i completely

2244
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:46,080
agree that

2245
01:17:50,070 --> 01:17:48,239
this is as much about redefining what it

2246
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:50,080
means to be a human being

2247
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:52,560
as it is about defining these others and

2248
01:17:56,070 --> 01:17:54,480
and understanding them and i don't think

2249
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:56,080
you can do one without the other you

2250
01:18:00,390 --> 01:17:58,320
know i think that uh even when you see

2251
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:00,400
different societies different cultures

2252
01:18:05,590 --> 01:18:03,440
within one species our species interact

2253
01:18:06,709 --> 01:18:05,600
they inevitably are changed right when

2254
01:18:09,270 --> 01:18:06,719
you look at

2255
01:18:10,550 --> 01:18:09,280
cities that exist on coastal areas so

2256
01:18:13,110 --> 01:18:10,560
that they

2257
01:18:15,430 --> 01:18:13,120
are more quick to uh interact with

2258
01:18:16,950 --> 01:18:15,440
internationals right it changes those

2259
01:18:18,470 --> 01:18:16,960
cities we

2260
01:18:20,709 --> 01:18:18,480
we uh

2261
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:20,719
there's more of a cosmopolitan kind of

2262
01:18:24,870 --> 01:18:23,520
um character to those cities right

2263
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:24,880
and so

2264
01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:27,120
then that's just human population right

2265
01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:28,159
so

2266
01:18:31,830 --> 01:18:29,280
how

2267
01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:31,840
quickly uh and you know

2268
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:34,320
greatly will be will we be transformed

2269
01:18:37,189 --> 01:18:35,440
by

2270
01:18:39,510 --> 01:18:37,199
uh an interaction with the other that

2271
01:18:41,110 --> 01:18:39,520
like you say provides a mirror unto

2272
01:18:43,669 --> 01:18:41,120
ourselves that we've never had before

2273
01:18:44,709 --> 01:18:43,679
that that's fascinating um in terms of

2274
01:18:46,709 --> 01:18:44,719
where

2275
01:18:49,110 --> 01:18:46,719
we're going to go with the show uh

2276
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:49,120
i think yeah as i'm as we've sort of

2277
01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:50,800
discussed today i think it'll be really

2278
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:52,320
interesting to

2279
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:55,040
to take on different frames right to uh

2280
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:55,920
to

2281
01:19:00,149 --> 01:18:57,840
take a different pair of glasses

2282
01:19:01,669 --> 01:19:00,159
each time and say let's look at it from

2283
01:19:02,950 --> 01:19:01,679
this perspective there are some people

2284
01:19:04,950 --> 01:19:02,960
who say

2285
01:19:07,030 --> 01:19:04,960
that part of the phenomenon is these

2286
01:19:09,430 --> 01:19:07,040
higher conscious consciousness beings

2287
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:09,440
who are here to help us ascend to the

2288
01:19:13,510 --> 01:19:11,280
fifth dimension right what does that

2289
01:19:15,990 --> 01:19:13,520
mean what do we mean by that what does

2290
01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:16,000
that look like uh what are the the

2291
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:18,640
moving parts in that um

2292
01:19:22,709 --> 01:19:20,400
there are other people who say this is a

2293
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:22,719
you know even you know

2294
01:19:25,669 --> 01:19:24,480
people will say even the government that

2295
01:19:27,669 --> 01:19:25,679
the people within the government that

2296
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:27,679
are in the know will say there's

2297
01:19:31,990 --> 01:19:30,239
definitely a spiritual element to this

2298
01:19:35,110 --> 01:19:32,000
spiritual component to this phenomenon

2299
01:19:37,430 --> 01:19:35,120
what do we mean by that you know um

2300
01:19:39,910 --> 01:19:37,440
uh today i was dialoguing with someone

2301
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:39,920
who was wondering if the collins elite

2302
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:42,239
is correct and that these are demons and

2303
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:44,080
what i was trying to help him see was

2304
01:19:48,790 --> 01:19:46,159
that well what do you mean by demons do

2305
01:19:51,990 --> 01:19:48,800
you mean that a very particular

2306
01:19:53,830 --> 01:19:52,000
framing from a fundamentalist christian

2307
01:19:56,229 --> 01:19:53,840
perspective and if you believe that you

2308
01:19:58,310 --> 01:19:56,239
have to swallow the entire rest of the

2309
01:19:59,510 --> 01:19:58,320
creation myth and all of the mythology

2310
01:20:02,709 --> 01:19:59,520
along with it

2311
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:02,719
or are they also just examples of people

2312
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:04,960
in history trying to make sense of this

2313
01:20:09,270 --> 01:20:06,800
same phenomenon right and

2314
01:20:11,510 --> 01:20:09,280
applying categories and the thinking of

2315
01:20:13,590 --> 01:20:11,520
that time just like we're trying to do

2316
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:13,600
now

2317
01:20:18,310 --> 01:20:15,679
again i think part of the challenge here

2318
01:20:20,229 --> 01:20:18,320
is it comes both ways that we can uh

2319
01:20:21,830 --> 01:20:20,239
tend to

2320
01:20:24,310 --> 01:20:21,840
miss the mark by

2321
01:20:26,550 --> 01:20:24,320
saying okay look fairies do this kind of

2322
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:26,560
thing they kidnap people great aliens

2323
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:28,480
kidnap people so therefore they must be

2324
01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:29,760
the same entity

2325
01:20:32,950 --> 01:20:31,120
we don't know that you know and that

2326
01:20:34,149 --> 01:20:32,960
that's that's a fairly superficial

2327
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:34,159
analysis

2328
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:36,560
um and they might be doing it for very

2329
01:20:41,910 --> 01:20:38,880
different reasons you know the the whole

2330
01:20:44,470 --> 01:20:41,920
hybridization aspect and the

2331
01:20:46,629 --> 01:20:44,480
the biological you know part that you

2332
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:46,639
know

2333
01:20:52,229 --> 01:20:50,159
and it happening over multiple

2334
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:52,239
generations all of this is fascinating

2335
01:20:57,350 --> 01:20:55,360
that um perhaps there is an interaction

2336
01:20:59,510 --> 01:20:57,360
happening but it's happening on a

2337
01:21:01,350 --> 01:20:59,520
subversive level right

2338
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:01,360
or maybe those high consciousness beings

2339
01:21:05,430 --> 01:21:02,639
that are trying to help us ascend are

2340
01:21:07,110 --> 01:21:05,440
here along with another species that's

2341
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:07,120
that's actually trying to manipulate our

2342
01:21:11,669 --> 01:21:09,840
genome and create hybridized beings

2343
01:21:14,070 --> 01:21:11,679
maybe some of them are really are us

2344
01:21:16,310 --> 01:21:14,080
from the future and they're trying to

2345
01:21:18,470 --> 01:21:16,320
improve their stock because of some you

2346
01:21:20,790 --> 01:21:18,480
know catastrophe they've run into in a

2347
01:21:23,189 --> 01:21:20,800
different timeline or something right

2348
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:23,199
these are all worth exploring so what

2349
01:21:26,310 --> 01:21:24,960
i'm looking forward to

2350
01:21:28,390 --> 01:21:26,320
and then i'm going to turn it on to you

2351
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:28,400
to have you answer the same question

2352
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:31,360
but for me i'm really looking forward to

2353
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:34,320
the opportunity to in detail look at

2354
01:21:38,229 --> 01:21:35,920
each of those the strengths the

2355
01:21:40,550 --> 01:21:38,239
weaknesses what part of the what aspects

2356
01:21:41,590 --> 01:21:40,560
of the data fit that which don't

2357
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:41,600
um

2358
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:43,199
that i'm because when neither one of us

2359
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:45,520
is attached to a particular perspective

2360
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:47,360
i'm excited about putting on different

2361
01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:49,920
pairs of glass glasses each time and

2362
01:21:54,550 --> 01:21:52,880
examining each one honestly fairly and

2363
01:21:55,669 --> 01:21:54,560
as objectively as we can but how about

2364
01:21:57,430 --> 01:21:55,679
you what are you what are you looking

2365
01:21:59,669 --> 01:21:57,440
forward to in this in this show in the

2366
01:22:02,070 --> 01:21:59,679
future yeah i think uh you know i look

2367
01:22:02,950 --> 01:22:02,080
at it almost from the standpoint of um

2368
01:22:04,709 --> 01:22:02,960
of

2369
01:22:07,110 --> 01:22:04,719
languages or or

2370
01:22:09,350 --> 01:22:07,120
sort of cuisine from different cultures

2371
01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:09,360
uh learning to appreciate all of these

2372
01:22:12,229 --> 01:22:11,120
different uh sort of modes of

2373
01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:12,239
interaction

2374
01:22:16,870 --> 01:22:14,719
uh being able to be conversant in in

2375
01:22:18,070 --> 01:22:16,880
them and appreciate them for what what

2376
01:22:20,229 --> 01:22:18,080
they are

2377
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:20,239
i think that makes us

2378
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:22,800
more well-rounded and it also is it's

2379
01:22:27,030 --> 01:22:25,679
not just um when you're doing that when

2380
01:22:28,709 --> 01:22:27,040
we're looking at it from these different

2381
01:22:30,550 --> 01:22:28,719
frameworks we're not

2382
01:22:31,750 --> 01:22:30,560
just picking each of them up and putting

2383
01:22:33,189 --> 01:22:31,760
them back down

2384
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:33,199
when we're when we go through that

2385
01:22:38,470 --> 01:22:35,520
entire exercise we are also in the

2386
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:38,480
process of creating new frameworks that

2387
01:22:41,189 --> 01:22:39,199
are

2388
01:22:43,270 --> 01:22:41,199
sort of incorporating

2389
01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:43,280
components of all of those different

2390
01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:45,360
modes and tools

2391
01:22:50,629 --> 01:22:47,360
such that we have

2392
01:22:53,830 --> 01:22:50,639
a new language to use to explain what we

2393
01:22:55,910 --> 01:22:53,840
are observing uh new hypotheses to test

2394
01:22:57,590 --> 01:22:55,920
and and that process is recursive right

2395
01:23:00,390 --> 01:22:57,600
it just kind of keeps going and going

2396
01:23:02,950 --> 01:23:00,400
and and for me that that sort of journey

2397
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:02,960
that intellectual exercise is you know a

2398
01:23:07,669 --> 01:23:05,199
huge reason why i wanted to do this show

2399
01:23:09,350 --> 01:23:07,679
because i knew that with you

2400
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,360
uh and with with

2401
01:23:12,629 --> 01:23:11,760
our audience we'll have the partnership

2402
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:12,639
that

2403
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:25,600
subject so you know i'm very excited for

2404
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:27,760
the project i looking forward to seeing

2405
01:23:31,510 --> 01:23:29,280
kind of where it takes us and looking

2406
01:23:34,310 --> 01:23:31,520
forward to seeing uh what the reaction

2407
01:23:36,550 --> 01:23:34,320
is of those uh who are listening

2408
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:36,560
and and i guess on that note

2409
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:40,159
uh i will say as we kind of wrap up

2410
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:42,560
the first episode here um there are a

2411
01:23:45,990 --> 01:23:43,920
couple places where people can get in

2412
01:23:47,430 --> 01:23:46,000
touch with us if they want to interact

2413
01:23:48,470 --> 01:23:47,440
with us and we certainly hope that they

2414
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:48,480
do

2415
01:23:53,350 --> 01:23:50,080
you can find us

2416
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:53,360
at liminal frames on twitter

2417
01:23:59,350 --> 01:23:56,239
liminal frames will also be available

2418
01:24:01,510 --> 01:23:59,360
on your podcast platform of choice so

2419
01:24:04,310 --> 01:24:01,520
should be available on spotify apple

2420
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:04,320
google all the different uh feeds there

2421
01:24:09,030 --> 01:24:05,760
and then uh

2422
01:24:11,910 --> 01:24:09,040
exo people can find you on uh youtube as

2423
01:24:13,110 --> 01:24:11,920
well right on your exo academian

2424
01:24:15,270 --> 01:24:13,120
youtube channel and what will our

2425
01:24:16,790 --> 01:24:15,280
content be there is that we'll host some

2426
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:16,800
of this as well

2427
01:24:21,110 --> 01:24:19,520
yeah so we we will have um liminal

2428
01:24:24,229 --> 01:24:21,120
frames will be like you said it'll be

2429
01:24:25,990 --> 01:24:24,239
its own dedicated podcast um

2430
01:24:27,910 --> 01:24:26,000
which will be every two weeks is what

2431
01:24:30,950 --> 01:24:27,920
we're aiming for uh we'll do kind of a

2432
01:24:32,709 --> 01:24:30,960
90 minute episode every two weeks uh

2433
01:24:34,790 --> 01:24:32,719
tackling a different frame

2434
01:24:36,950 --> 01:24:34,800
each time and

2435
01:24:39,510 --> 01:24:36,960
and that will be on like you said on

2436
01:24:41,030 --> 01:24:39,520
google podcast apple spotify all the

2437
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,040
usual players

2438
01:24:45,830 --> 01:24:43,120
and then in terms of youtube

2439
01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:45,840
we will also upload these episodes to my

2440
01:24:51,110 --> 01:24:48,400
youtube channel which is slash exo

2441
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:51,120
academia so nice at the exo academia and

2442
01:24:54,070 --> 01:24:52,719
youtube channel you'll find the point of

2443
01:24:56,790 --> 01:24:54,080
convergence

2444
01:24:58,470 --> 01:24:56,800
episodes which air once a week and also

2445
01:25:00,470 --> 01:24:58,480
as a separate playlist you will be able

2446
01:25:02,709 --> 01:25:00,480
to find each of the liminal frame

2447
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:02,719
episodes as well excellent excellent

2448
01:25:08,070 --> 01:25:04,800
yeah and then uh i guess uh just

2449
01:25:11,110 --> 01:25:08,080
wrapping up too you can find uh me

2450
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:11,120
on twitter i'm at a wave soul

2451
01:25:14,709 --> 01:25:12,960
you can also find me on

2452
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:14,719
my other show calling all beings on

2453
01:25:18,870 --> 01:25:16,560
youtube hope you check that out

2454
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:18,880
for more sort of community focused uh

2455
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,560
take on the phenomenon

2456
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:22,560
and then exo folks can find you on

2457
01:25:25,350 --> 01:25:24,480
twitter as well right so your handle is

2458
01:25:26,950 --> 01:25:25,360
at

2459
01:25:33,110 --> 01:25:26,960
exo academia

2460
01:25:34,390 --> 01:25:33,120
um find me there i'm also on facebook as

2461
01:25:36,550 --> 01:25:34,400
well

2462
01:25:38,629 --> 01:25:36,560
um and the other thing i would add too

2463
01:25:41,110 --> 01:25:38,639
as we wrap up here is we really do want

2464
01:25:42,870 --> 01:25:41,120
this to be a cooperative

2465
01:25:46,149 --> 01:25:42,880
interactive process

2466
01:25:48,870 --> 01:25:46,159
so we would love for people to um

2467
01:25:49,669 --> 01:25:48,880
you know write in with questions they

2468
01:25:51,270 --> 01:25:49,679
have

2469
01:25:53,910 --> 01:25:51,280
if you think there's points that we're

2470
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:53,920
not tackling fairly then point those out

2471
01:25:58,629 --> 01:25:56,159
i think again neither one of us is

2472
01:25:59,910 --> 01:25:58,639
attached to a particular perspective

2473
01:26:01,910 --> 01:25:59,920
we um

2474
01:26:05,189 --> 01:26:01,920
we we value seeing it from different

2475
01:26:07,030 --> 01:26:05,199
viewpoints and a multi-perspectival view

2476
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:07,040
if you think that we are you know

2477
01:26:10,709 --> 01:26:09,040
looking at it with too much of one lens

2478
01:26:12,310 --> 01:26:10,719
and not another bring that to our

2479
01:26:13,910 --> 01:26:12,320
attention if you think there's an aspect

2480
01:26:15,910 --> 01:26:13,920
of the data that we

2481
01:26:18,709 --> 01:26:15,920
either are unfamiliar with or are

2482
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:18,719
ignoring uh let us know we really want

2483
01:26:22,390 --> 01:26:20,880
this to be an ongoing um

2484
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:22,400
journey together

2485
01:26:25,830 --> 01:26:24,159
i think we see ourselves to some degree

2486
01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:25,840
as as tour guides

2487
01:26:29,550 --> 01:26:27,280
um where

2488
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:29,560
you know in in the midst of this uh

2489
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:32,960
discombobulating assortment of phenomena

2490
01:26:36,149 --> 01:26:35,040
which it's hard to even say you know how

2491
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:36,159
much is alien how much is

2492
01:26:41,350 --> 01:26:38,400
interdimensional how much is uh the

2493
01:26:43,510 --> 01:26:41,360
collective unconscious manifesting and

2494
01:26:45,990 --> 01:26:43,520
you know error goes and all sorts of

2495
01:26:47,030 --> 01:26:46,000
crazy stuff and and to what degree is

2496
01:26:48,950 --> 01:26:47,040
human

2497
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:48,960
nature evolving to the point where we

2498
01:26:53,110 --> 01:26:51,520
ourselves are manifesting

2499
01:26:55,030 --> 01:26:53,120
aspects of reality that we're not fully

2500
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:55,040
even in touch with yet all of these are

2501
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:56,800
fascinating questions

2502
01:27:01,990 --> 01:26:58,800
and we and we hope to tackle each of

2503
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:02,000
them fairly and honestly and objectively

2504
01:27:06,229 --> 01:27:03,840
so we would love to hear from people in

2505
01:27:08,550 --> 01:27:06,239
terms of ideas they'd like us to tackle

2506
01:27:11,030 --> 01:27:08,560
and also feedback when you've heard us

2507
01:27:13,350 --> 01:27:11,040
talk about a certain hypothesis or

2508
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:13,360
viewpoint or aspect of the data let us

2509
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:14,880
know what you think and that'll that'll

2510
01:27:18,790 --> 01:27:17,280
help feed into future shows absolutely

2511
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:18,800
yeah well said

2512
01:27:24,149 --> 01:27:21,920
uh the questions uh are essential

2513
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:24,159
and the answers as well and the theories

2514
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:26,000
and uh and with that being said i think

2515
01:27:31,189 --> 01:27:28,800
we'll wrap it up so from from uh us at

2516
01:27:32,950 --> 01:27:31,199
uh liminal frames nathan and exo

2517
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:32,960
academian

2518
01:27:37,510 --> 01:27:35,440
may the quality of our questions

2519
01:27:40,229 --> 01:27:37,520
shaped by a desire for understanding

2520
01:27:41,990 --> 01:27:40,239
enhance our journey of discovery and may

2521
01:27:43,189 --> 01:27:42,000
our travels broaden the sphere of our

2522
01:27:45,669 --> 01:27:43,199
consciousness

2523
01:27:47,430 --> 01:27:45,679
reminding us that new discoveries beget

2524
01:27:50,470 --> 01:27:47,440
new horizons

2525
01:28:05,900 --> 01:27:50,480
as always adventure awaits we'll see you